What is the perfect balance?

What is the best way to train to be a highland athlete. Well for starters...throw. I know that sounds silly but it isn't. I asked Bill Wallace one time 'how do I become a great kicker' He said 'Kick'.  Nothing will beat sitting down and watching tape of throws then taping your own throws. The biggest thing is, don't be too technical. Get down the basics and perfect them.

Lifting. Leg drive, Core and Grip. Contrary to most I will say a big bench does NOT help. Talking with John Davis about the stone he said to me 'Legs legs legs!!!'  Coach mac has eluded to the same. It has even been stated that you can somewhat tell how your stones will go by how well your Push and Jerk press goes.

But here is where the confusion kicks in. We only really throw a 56lb implement plus some centrefugal (sp) force. To me a 600lb Deadlift or squat is wasted. Not only that, I have yet to see a 600lb speed squat...even from Pyrros Dimas .  Bottom line to make anything go higher and further it must go FASTER. I don't feel you can train the body to go slow 6 months out of the year then ask it to go fast. It just hasn't been trained that way.

So what IS the solution?  Oppinions vary greatly it seems on this subject. We have WSBB guys, Poliquin, Pavel, and on and on and on.  Personally...I feel that to move something fast you must train the body to have speed strength. I do believe there is a place for deadlifts, but instead of 600lbs, throw on 405 and add bands, Chains etc and really DRIVE the weight.  Stuff like that.

I would like to open this up and everyone start adding their ideas and 2 cents on this issue.

my humble opinion.

There is a time of the year to go heavy, it's called winter. 3-4months.  After that Light to medium and fast! Fast faster!

Some guys need to pull a 700+ dead to "feel" ready.  Simply the mental relaxation of this "feeling ready" makes them throw better.  nothing to do literally with pulling 700.  ALL MENTAL, they are more confident and that translates to success.  Whatever works.  If I could pull 700 (ever) and it made me feel strong and ready and confident I would pull that 700 every damn day of the week and twice on saturdays! 

I agree with Brians Philosophy ....gulp...   But that is just how I am geared.

You cannot abandon the weights entirely during season.  Bad idea.

"Success breeds confidence and confidence breeds success"  there is nothing more true.

I think you are on to something good Brian.  I believe though that you must account for all types of strength.  A good conjugate approach will enable you to bring up more that one strength.  During the season you should put the most focus on your throwing. 

Really, it should work in a wave like fashion.  As the throwing season comes to an end you can start to focus more on limit strenght, while not completely neglecting strength-speed or speed-strength.  As the season approaches you can shift your focus to speed-strength and cut back on absolute strength though not completely.  Through all of this, weather permiting you should throw or drill.  One of the things I've learned to regret, is to go through the cold season getting stronger only to go throw the first time it gets warm and find that I have forgoten how.  That sucks.  Lesson learned. 

We are throwers and we should move fast but who do you think can throw the WOB higher.  A guy that deadlifts 405 quick or 600 quick, snatches 200 or snatches 300.  The stronger you are the easier it is to move heavier weights faster...so long as you work on speed AND strength.  But like they say, "There is no strength like technique."

I do like this thread Brian.  Nice discussion.

Edited by Tim Pinkerton

I think the way people train for this sport is largely dependant on their background.  To use myself as an example, I have zero track background what so ever.  I've only touched a shotput once in my life (and it was actually after i turned pro).  I have no olympic lifting background (unless you stretch to count my push presses).  I think this is one of the rare sports where athletic indivduals can succeed.  Whether you are a shotputter, powerlifter, weightlifter, cupcake eater, etc... there is a balance of events that takes some of the edge away.  The rest is just putting in the time to learn the events.

I deadlift heavy, i squat heavy (zercher, of course), and i push press heavy.  I do not clean, i do not snatch, i do not olympic lift.  Granted, alot of this comes from never having done it.  But im not really motivated at this point to learn it.  Im not building any new fast twitch at this point, and neither is anyone else over the age of 21.  I pull 700 because i like it, and because i think it helps me in some events, specifically the 56's.  My deadlifts are good, and my wob is the best its ever been.  Im not breaking any records, but im pretty happy with how its going.  Dont get me wrong, i do pull 400 quickly, it just happens to be my warm up for the heavier weights

When i am stronger i throw farther, period.  But, that may just be me.  I'm of the opinion that strength is certainly not a hindrence for this sport.  It's not the end all/be all, but, hey, does it really hurt?

I train the "speed" portion when im actually throwing the weights.  Who says you can't train both at the same time.  Why can't i take 5 seconds to get out of the hole in a big squat, then walk outside and be fast throwing the weights.  I think i can.  Maybe im wrong.

Time is a big factor in this.  Learning fundamentals (for some the learning curve is greater), practicing them, and visualizing them. 

I think there is a certain degree of strength that is necessary to be able to compete in this sport.  Is a 900 lb. squat?  Absolutely not, its not even a 315 squat (Will ), but some strength is necessary. 

All this writing and im not even sure i stayed on track.  Anyhoo, i think your background dictates how you train, at least intially.  From there its alot of experimentation to figure out what works best for you.   I also don't know anyone, pro or am, that stays with the exact same rountine/training year after year with consistent results.  Every year i've been a pro i've tried something different during the season with regards to weight trainging and throwing.  And guess what, next year will probably be different too.

So what really works?  I dunno, but I just wasted a lot of board space to say that.  Ask me in 10 years i guess... 

Hopefully you'll get some responses from guys like Ryan and Kurt who have been doing this for a long time, and continue to improve.

Has anyone calculated the weight equivalent generated with the hammer and weights when thrown a given distance?

I would think this figure plus a good margin for comfort should give a better idea about the strength goals you might want to shoot for.  It's all physics right? 

In a related thread, anyone thought about providing a lifting glossary on here, maybe with a way to associate a vid clip?  It would be handy for those of us that aren't familiar with certain terms (like what's a power pull? or a non-power pull for that matter)  Then you could add some of the more 'custom' techniques as well, like that twisty plate stacking exercise.

I took a stab at that calculation, but it's a little dicey.  It goes something like this:

The velocity and trajectory of the ball at release determines how far it goes.  This is easy.  Neglecting the release at shoulder height, if I'm not mistaken you get

Distance = 2 V^2 cos(angle) sin(angle) / g

Among other things, this means you'd want to release at 45 degrees (which decreases as shoulder height increases).  For a 100-ft throw with a 45 degree trajectory, the velocity is 56.7 ft/sec.

The centrifugal force on the handle at release can be idealized using a simple calculation:

Force = m V^2 / R

This seems simple enough, but the problem is that the radius is NOT the length of the implement plus the length of the arm, because you move your center of gravity to maintain your balance.  In other words, the center of rotation is somewhere between your chest and the handle (and the bigger you are, the larger the radius can be).

Two extremes might be a radius of 4-1/2' and 6'.  For a 100' throw of a 22# hammer,

Force = (22/32.174) slugs (56.7 ft/sec)^2 / R

which gives forces ranging from 366-488 lbs.  In other words, you're generating real force here.

One other conclusion you can draw from this is that, for a given radius (a given individual with a given style), the centrifugal force is proportional to throwing distance.

-Wayne

There's a reason we call him the wizard

I can't believe I'm saying this but I think speed weight training is way over-rated for this sport.

When was the last time you saw a guy throw bad and say 'wow, if he was just faster or more explosive he would throw farther"?  Usually its the case if he just held back the upper body, sank more, or had better timing then he would have thrown farther.  Most guys I see have more than enough speed and explosiveness but lack technique.

Craig said it and I know a guy who studies international speed-strength training religiously; after your early 20's you are all done developing those fast-twitch fibers.  That means those of us that have already trained them, we aren't going to get any faster so train throwing technique and strength.

I've even found watching video is no longer that helpful, you have to feel the technique for yourself and learn to recognize it be it good or bad.

And not to mention that training the o-lifts and throwing heavy stuff at the same time can really do some major damage to your body and nervous system.

 

 

As far as not being able to build/accrew more fast twitch muscle fibers after the age of 20, that research is a little if-y.  I don't want to argue that though.  I can't, I don't have any better research to dispute it so...I'll just sit on that one  BUT,  as far as becoming more exposive or faster after you are 20(ish), that's definetly possible.  You can do this due to your amazing CNS (central nervous system).  Your body is highly adaptable.  It will respond to the stress that you put on it so as to reduce the amount of stress that you are able to put on it latter.  Or, you could just sum it up by saying it is "motor learning". 

For instance...jumping.  We all know how to jump.  But can you jump high(er).  Well, let's just say, that Thom Van Vleck (thanks for volunteering Thom) for an example can, hypothetically squat 500, clean 300, and snatch 200 but he can't jump to save his life.  If all things were kept the same i.e. his lift numbers but we worked in some jumping plyos to "teach" him how to jump explosively/fast.  He would soon be jumping higher and with no increase in strength or amount of fast twitch fibers.  The difference: his ability to activate those fibers that he already has improved.  His neuromuscular efficiency and motor unit threshhold improved.  Now, will this only help him jump higher.  I assure you it will have a carry over effect to a multitude of things/activities.

Let me stress, however, that with out Thom's good "base" level of strength his improvements would have been far less impressive.  So I do agree that while speed is great it is nothing with out its big brother strength.

As an added note or as Randell would say "IMHO",  I think that if you are already pretty fast then spend more time getting stronger.  If your already pretty strong then focus on getting faster.

Edited by Tim Pinkerton

Explosiveness can be trained to an extent that depends on the individual.  One of the Russians (Zatsiorsky?  Vorobyev?) had a measure of this, which was called the explosiveness deficit.  As an example, you might have an athlete try two vertical jumps:

• One with the usual dip.
• One starting from a static position at the lowest point in the dip.

The first jump would have the benefit of the stretch-shorten cycle, so it would be higher than the second.  The question is by how much.  If the difference was very large, i.e., the stretch-shorten cycle really helps you, this means that the muscle isn't able to generate force as quickly as you'd like and you need to work on explosiveness via, say plyos.  If the difference was small, i.e., the stretch-shorten cycle doesn't add much, then your muscles are already very explosive, so you should work on strength conditioning.

-Wayne

Exactly.

-Wayne

Hmm, I'll have to dig around in there (looks like a challenge).

I would think you'd get more out of a Romanian DL than a SLDL, because you actuate the knee and hips together, which we tend to do in HG.

-Wayne

Jason thanks.  I have a feeling that may be the way to go. On the snatches, I am thinking hang snatches just to make the body learn to apply force all the way through the pull.

HA!

Ewwww.