recovery vs adaptation

Shawn,

This is a subject I have been very interested in for several years now, largely as a result of reading and hearing about the Bulgarian system (which inarguably utilized drugs, although they were very far from alone in this...). 

As I saw it, the main question at issue, aside from how does one manage to survive at all on such a routine for more than a few weeks at most, is reconciling the generally-held view that utilizing max reps for an extended period of time leads to first (and most importantly from a training perspective) stagnation, then  burnout/overtraining, then exhaustion/general breakdown.  This would be particularly true for "slow lifts" like the three powerlifts, and probably somewhat less so for the "quick lifts" that do not have a real eccentric component.

This was the main issue for me because I could imagine that over a period of months and years of gradual progression one could indeed ADAPT to lifting very heavy on a regular and extended basis (in the manner it is done by elite Olympic lifters, with lots of eccentricless lifting and minimal use of anything beyond 3 reps at most).

Unfortunately, despite listening to some top coaches and even corresponding with a couple of good ones, I haven't ever received a good, clear explanation of why lifting the heaviest weights one is capable of on any given day all the time (whether that is 3x a week or 12x) does not lead to stagnation in performance, leaving aside the longer-term issues.  Basically, the answer that comes back is that performance DOES stagnate or possibly even regress for a period of time (as it often does with any system to some extent) and then jumps again, with this cycle repeating itself on a semi-random basis on an upward trajectory.  Whether some form or degree of periodization is superior remains an open question for me. 

Personally, I have adopted this philosophy (with respect to intensity, not frequency, which is almost a separate issue) somewhat with respect to power cleans and snatches, but much less so for other lifts.  I should note that the great throws coach Bondarchuck seems to have a very different philosophy, although I have never really been able to understand the logic behind some of his LIFTING methods despite having both of his books and speaking with others who know him. 

With respect to your specific question, I am not aware of ANY throws coaches who advocate training in this manner.  All throws coaches would use SOME form of periodization, generally some form of alternating or undulating periodization within the context of a larger annual or seasonal plan.  The annual program outlined in detail by Ulf Timmermann is one example.

With respect to the issue of actually overtraining, it is clear that this DOES happen in at least some instances (probably depending on how aggressive you are with progressing the frequency and/or volume), but that this is seen as an inevitable or perhaps even necessary part of the ADAPTATION process of training in this manner.  Broz refers to this as the "Dark Period".  This has significant implications for many athletes and people who are not full-time, competitive Olympic lifters.  It seems that you either buy in to the necessity of going through this severely overtrained state or not, but in any case that aspect isn't going to apply to too many people reading this (not me anyway).  I personally suspect even if you believe in this method generally, avoiding the period of significant overtraining could be managed by employing a more gradual and systematic progression in training volume and frequency.  But what do I know?

One thing I would like to point out to you, which I am sure you know already, is that the reason for this system is to adapt the lifter's muscles and CNS to lifting maximal weights, nothing else, and that the lifting technique and specific muscle fiber and energy system adaptations are somewhat different when lifting one's max than performing a set of 5 or a single with 80% of one's max.  Consequently, on this view, deadlifting 500 lbs on a regular basis would make you very good at deadlifting 500 lbs, but not do that much to improve your max single.

I look forward to any discussion on this topic and hope others have something to add.

Here are a few links that you should find very interesting:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121212081

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121513741

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/A rticle/449/A_Few_Words_with_Weightlifting_Coach_John_Broz.as px

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMQ1k88kXpg&feature=relat ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmqmx68r8o8

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=125378921

http://weightliftingexchange.com/index.php?option=com_conten t&task=view&id=74&Itemid=75

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0rH854eubg  (the full video noted is excellent but is very long and takes time to load)

 

in Feb/march of 02 I did a take on Pavel's PTTP program. Went in and did 3x5 deadlift every day starting at I think 50% of my 1RM. Added 5lbs every day. If I couldn't add 5lbs I subtracted 5 lbs, then went back to adding 5lbs, you get the point.  Other than that I pressed.

Went out my first throwing session and every stone toss was over my former PR. Next on the 56 set a pr on the first throw. Next one went even further. Next one...POP!  Went my Patellar tendon as I hit the trig.  Now this has been debated greatly as some say I just hit the trig wrong and some say my tendons were fatigued or whatever from the lifting routine I did.

As for as the training goes you will find cats like Dan John that think doing something like that 1-2x per year for a max of 6 weeks tops is a good thing, others won't touch it with a 10 m cattle prod.

Personally if you watch the loads you are under, sure you can lift or throw every day and the body will adapt. Hell our grandfathers worked their asses off in tough ass jobs every day and they adapted just fine.

brandell wrote: Personally if you watch the loads you are under, sure you can lift or throw every day and the body will adapt. Hell our grandfathers worked their asses off in tough ass jobs every day and they adapted just fine.

With respect to your first sentence, the issue is that maximum daily intensity is the cornerstone of this program, with frequency being a secondary aspect. 

With respect to your second sentence, that is exactly the argument that proponents of this system use, but with the understanding that one is talking about the goal of lifting maximum weights in just a few lifts for hours every day.

Tommy Kono won many gold medals for USA in WL.  He still says to this day USA WL are way over trained, he trained 3-4 days a week most of the time!!!  My friend Rick Bucinell, weightlifter at age 46 trains 2x week and is masters world record holder, doing 150k snatch and 190k cj...
Donny is getting into the Philosophical aspect of training, however the science says- The body and systems will break down!!
Some of my biggest gains and prs in the weight room came during the season, because I am forced to take off before and after games.  Therefore hitting a lift once every 10-12 days- and nailing prs feeling strong as hell!!
Like some of you said, its short lived with these guys...  They are expendible in most countries!! 

Not +1, +1000 to Mr. Baab.  I want to be throwing and active in the 80+ division of these games someday.