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    Posted: 4/06/12 at 5:41am
Originally posted by thegnome thegnome wrote:

Dude, I'm a pro...it's my job...

spoken like a true professional.

back on topic, 200#.
Even though this 100% benefits me, I'm training my arse off to get to the point where I cant make 200 anymore, and start throwing more legit AM numbers as opposed to comparing meself to the LW things.
Bigger and Stronger....errr Faster is always the goal.
jammin on the one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 4:51am
Dude, I'm a pro...it's my job...
Andrew G

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vonguinness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 4:40am
Quote There's even talk of a "Supertotal" meet at somepoint that would bring in those pesky OL guys and maybe even some of those dreaded crossfitters.  If that's the result of encouraging cross sport participation....I'll take it.

get out of my head!
jammin on the one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 4:28am
Again I say do what you want and lt others do the same but I would like to comment about the condescnding remark and simply say.......what?????
 
And as for incrasing head counts that's cool but I can tell you that right now in New York/New England there is a community off strength sports enthusiasts that is growing seriously close.  Since people have started crossing over from one sport to the next I have made friends and had experiences I wouldn't trade for anything.  In a few weeks I'm driving to Pgh for a strongman contest picking up some guys on the way, two weeks later we'll all be at a Highland games, and two weeks after that the same guys will be doing doing a Highlander at a community fstival.  There's even talk of a "Supertotal" meet at somepoint that would bring in those pesky OL guys and maybe even some of those dreaded crossfitters.  If that's the result of encouraging cross sport participation....I'll take it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 3:01am
Originally posted by vonguinness vonguinness wrote:

 I read about the first 3 lines of this. You use a lot of words.
 
LOLEmbarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vonguinness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 1:52am
Originally posted by McSanta McSanta wrote:

Originally posted by vonguinness vonguinness wrote:

this logic is hard to disagree with.

Leave it to me to disagree.

Making the argument that we should NOT use the 200lb weight limits as perscribed by a relatively new sport to guide the weight limits of an ancient sport is flawed as the Lightweight division is also relatively new aspect of this ancient sport.  Never the less, there is a strong argument that can be made to ignore other strength sports weight-limits (a long version of Mark Howe's post!?).

1. Heavy Athletics is a throwing sport with tests of strength. 
This egos what Mark Howe stated.  The premise of the argument of raising the lightweight division to 200lbs is that Heavy Athletics is a strength-sport.  But it is not, it is a throwing sport with tests of strength.  Out of heavy athletic traditions, came the hammer throw, the weight throw, and the shot put.  Do those in other "strength" sports considered those track and field throws a strength sport?

It is also a misnomer that the term "Heavy" refers to the implements or size of people throwing them (as I posted before), "Heavy" is a term that appeared before 1900 and is used to refer the strenuous nature of a sport.   It also distinguished between the running, jumping, and dancing contests that were once part of Highland Games and termed as "light" athletics (I cannot find the source on Light Athletics so I am not sure of the historical accuracy).

2. Nature of Heavy Athletics
The heavy implements (of the events that have heavy and light implements) can be thrown well with brute strength but the lighter implements requires a great deal of technique (speed and form) to generate a good throw.  A good example of this, which I have seen often, is in the hammer contest.  Strongman/powerlifter background throwers can hold their own in the heavy hammer against technical throwers but get toasted in the light hammer until they develop technique, just as  T&F Guys need to get stronger for events like standing WOB.

The draw to this sport is the unque combination of strength and skill and each individuals blending of those two.  Stronger contestants work on technique and technical contestants work on strength to get the right blend to be the champion of the day.   This I assume is a much different nature than other strength sports.

3. Heavy Athletics is NOT a lesser sport to "other" strength sport
I do see the logic to raise the limit in drawing a few more people into the lightweight division.  However, to change the limit based on this draw seems, to me, a weak argument.  If I ignored this "benefit", I feel there is a condescending element in the argument, in that Heavy Athletics is a lesser sport than other strength sport and should bow to their limits.  

Like track and field throwing, the rich history of Heavy Athletics also spawned strongman contests and other strength sports:  These sports have adopting and evolving some of Heavy Athletics tests of strength while adding their own.  Thus, the condescending element that  Heavy Athletics  should change to suit other strength sports weight classes.

I will admit that this view maybe as arogant as the other view is condescending, but I came to this sport from the cultural and heritage side, which drives this view. 

4. Heritage and tradition is embedded in this sport.  Although there is little celtic heritage in the 190 class, there is many years of tradition.  The line was drawn and there is no reason to change from a competitive prospective.   

Increasing the head count in a division is a weak argument and a very slippery slope: If 200lb, than why not 210lbs or the next breakpoint in another sport?  Why not bantam and super heavy weights as the other thread's joked about?

Just because it is not expressly forbidden, does not make it proper or acceptable to do in heavy athletics maybe a hard concept to grasp for an individual coming from track and field where everything is regulated or from powerlifting where bench shirts and all the other weird shit is worn to maximize results,   Although all are welcome in Heavy Athletics, drawing people from other strength sports has risks.  Without a historical and hertiage view point,  disagreements occur as the interpertation of rules because of the heritage and traditions embedded in this sport.   (there is a reason why we were kilts)
 
 

I read about the first 3 lines of this.
You use a lot of words.
I'd just like to say that Howe is a complete stud and awesome dude, I respect his thoughts a bunch.

jammin on the one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/06/12 at 1:31am
Originally posted by McSanta McSanta wrote:

I wish my fingers would stop behave and type what my brain is thinking -- my post echo's (not egos) Mark Howes post.

Preach on Santa!!!Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 11:54pm
I wish my fingers would stop behave and type what my brain is thinking -- my post echo's (not egos) Mark Howes post.
Mark McVey

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 11:51pm

Originally posted by vonguinness vonguinness wrote:

this logic is hard to disagree with.

Leave it to me to disagree.

Making the argument that we should NOT use the 200lb weight limits as perscribed by a relatively new sport to guide the weight limits of an ancient sport is flawed as the Lightweight division is also relatively new aspect of this ancient sport.  Never the less, there is a strong argument that can be made to ignore other strength sports weight-limits (a long version of Mark Howe's post!?).

1. Heavy Athletics is a throwing sport with tests of strength. 
This egos what Mark Howe stated.  The premise of the argument of raising the lightweight division to 200lbs is that Heavy Athletics is a strength-sport.  But it is not, it is a throwing sport with tests of strength.  Out of heavy athletic traditions, came the hammer throw, the weight throw, and the shot put.  Do those in other "strength" sports considered those track and field throws a strength sport?

It is also a misnomer that the term "Heavy" refers to the implements or size of people throwing them (as I posted before), "Heavy" is a term that appeared before 1900 and is used to refer the strenuous nature of a sport.   It also distinguished between the running, jumping, and dancing contests that were once part of Highland Games and termed as "light" athletics (I cannot find the source on Light Athletics so I am not sure of the historical accuracy).

2. Nature of Heavy Athletics
The heavy implements (of the events that have heavy and light implements) can be thrown well with brute strength but the lighter implements requires a great deal of technique (speed and form) to generate a good throw.  A good example of this, which I have seen often, is in the hammer contest.  Strongman/powerlifter background throwers can hold their own in the heavy hammer against technical throwers but get toasted in the light hammer until they develop technique, just as  T&F Guys need to get stronger for events like standing WOB.

The draw to this sport is the unque combination of strength and skill and each individuals blending of those two.  Stronger contestants work on technique and technical contestants work on strength to get the right blend to be the champion of the day.   This I assume is a much different nature than other strength sports.

3. Heavy Athletics is NOT a lesser sport to "other" strength sport
I do see the logic to raise the limit in drawing a few more people into the lightweight division.  However, to change the limit based on this draw seems, to me, a weak argument.  If I ignored this "benefit", I feel there is a condescending element in the argument, in that Heavy Athletics is a lesser sport than other strength sport and should bow to their limits.  

Like track and field throwing, the rich history of Heavy Athletics also spawned strongman contests and other strength sports:  These sports have adopting and evolving some of Heavy Athletics tests of strength while adding their own.  Thus, the condescending element that  Heavy Athletics  should change to suit other strength sports weight classes.

I will admit that this view maybe as arogant as the other view is condescending, but I came to this sport from the cultural and heritage side, which drives this view. 

4. Heritage and tradition is embedded in this sport.  Although there is little celtic heritage in the 190 class, there is many years of tradition.  The line was drawn and there is no reason to change from a competitive prospective.   

Increasing the head count in a division is a weak argument and a very slippery slope: If 200lb, than why not 210lbs or the next breakpoint in another sport?  Why not bantam and super heavy weights as the other thread's joked about?

Just because it is not expressly forbidden, does not make it proper or acceptable to do in heavy athletics maybe a hard concept to grasp for an individual coming from track and field where everything is regulated or from powerlifting where bench shirts and all the other weird shit is worn to maximize results,   Although all are welcome in Heavy Athletics, drawing people from other strength sports has risks.  Without a historical and hertiage view point,  disagreements occur as the interpertation of rules because of the heritage and traditions embedded in this sport.   (there is a reason why we were kilts)
 
 
Mark McVey

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 1:25pm
Again this isn't other strength sports!!!! The division is the division live with it!!! This has been an issue for years and it hasn't changed and isn't going to....This issue is started to get as bad as the Steroid post every year!!!  Let sleeping dogs lie... everybody is entitled to there opinions though, but Imo this subject is getting old!! This is not to offend anybody so pls don't take it that way...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vonguinness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 10:05am
Originally posted by thegnome thegnome wrote:

I can only speak for myself, I'm in favor of the 200 cut off.  It doesn't really matter for me since I get to throw the 42# as a Master anyway, goodness knows I could stand to lose more weight, and the bottom of one class is just as good as the bottom of another anyhow.  That said, 200 is used as a class in strongman, highlanders and has a rough PL comparison (198/90k), it also exists in the Masters.  I think the 200 might encourage more guys from the "other" sports to give things a go.  It's also just a more logical cut off point for number weirdos like me.  First digit on scale =1 then you are in , first digit = 2 then you are a heavyweight.  I think it gives the general public a number they can mor relate to as well.  There is also a nice round metric similar point with the 90kg for our Euro friends.
 
I say just let it work itself out.  Last time I checked we don't have an all powerful sanctioning body so just let it be what it will be.  You want 190 at your games ?Then have 190.  200? Then have 200.     


this logic is hard to disagree with.
I think Andrew touched on something important, since other strength sports use 200 or 198 as a class, I think you'd have a much easier time recruiting those guys to start competing at 200. I know I've done real well getting 200lb strongman guys to crossover.
jammin on the one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 5:08am
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

If you are over 40 and the day of a game you throw 49' with the 42 WFD then you get both records period. You weighted in and were under both weight limits for lightweights and Masters.

Again, this should be pretty simple.
 
how so? is there a lightweight master record because the masters 42 wfd record is 59' IIRC
 
I think you would only get the one record.
 
record = -(thrower) +/- sq rt (thrower)^2 - 4(lw thrower/masters thrower) all over 2*(lw thrower)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 4:13am
What about 220lbs?
You could be 5.10  220lb or 6.3   220lbs
against 220lbs +
5.10  275lbs or 6.5  275lbs.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 3:53am
I can only speak for myself, I'm in favor of the 200 cut off.  It doesn't really matter for me since I get to throw the 42# as a Master anyway, goodness knows I could stand to lose more weight, and the bottom of one class is just as good as the bottom of another anyhow.  That said, 200 is used as a class in strongman, highlanders and has a rough PL comparison (198/90k), it also exists in the Masters.  I think the 200 might encourage more guys from the "other" sports to give things a go.  It's also just a more logical cut off point for number weirdos like me.  First digit on scale =1 then you are in , first digit = 2 then you are a heavyweight.  I think it gives the general public a number they can mor relate to as well.  There is also a nice round metric similar point with the 90kg for our Euro friends.
 
I say just let it work itself out.  Last time I checked we don't have an all powerful sanctioning body so just let it be what it will be.  You want 190 at your games ?Then have 190.  200? Then have 200.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 3:51am
If you are over 40 and the day of a game you throw 49' with the 42 WFD then you get both records period. You weighted in and were under both weight limits for lightweights and Masters.

Again, this should be pretty simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 3:36am
Originally posted by markh markh wrote:

YES,  as long as he weighs in 190 or under.  The weight of the person needs to be acurate and viewed by the AD.
 
Agreed. I would also have him ask SAAA to make the weight class <190 like it is everywhere else and has always been... We keep saying this is an issue that is already settled due to past practice but there are advocates for the <200 out there that persist. Why is that? What is their motivation? Maybe I'm just a dumb guy that likes to lift and throw. Help me understand.
(I am not speaking of the masters class)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 3:33am
Originally posted by markh markh wrote:

YES,  as long as he weighs in 190 or under.  The weight of the person needs to be acurate and viewed by the AD.
 
Agreed. I would also have him ask SAAA to make the weight class <190 like it is everywhere else and has always been...   We keep saying this is an issue that is already settled due to past practice but there are advocates for the <200 out there that persist.  Why is that? What is their motivation? Maybe I'm just a dumb guy that likes to lift and throw. Help me understand.
 
 
(I am not speaking of the masters class)
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(thrower A)^2 + (thrower B)^2 = (thrower C)^2    

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YES,  as long as he weighs in 190 or under.  The weight of the person needs to be acurate and viewed by the AD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 2:53am
Originally posted by celtuckian celtuckian wrote:

If Thrower A weighs 189# and throws the LWFD 50' (again, just 'throwing' out numbers here) and Thrower B weighs 165# and throws the LWFD 49', do you then award first place to Thrower B?  No.
 
IMO, if thrower A and thrower B are throwing in the same class, the person with the farthest throw wins. period.
 
Furthermore, I'm thinking LW guys are getting screwed on the west coast with the SAAA. I have a friend that is close to setting WRs in LW division but since SAAA has LWs @ <200 rather than <190, if he beats the record it won't count.
 
Does a LW WR count if the guy competing in <200 in an SAAA sanctioned games weighs <190? hmmm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 2:37am
No cause there isn't a weight divison,  it's A and B,  and normally the A and B Guys don't weigh in before the Comp.  The B guy would win the B and the A Guy would win the A...  If the 190 guy threw in a 200lb class and threw 70' and a guy in The 200 weighing 198 threw 70'1" the 198 guy would win cause they are competing in the same division.  Now that has nothing to do with records.  As of right Now the only records are for 190< class.  A 200lb can't get a 190 record or a 200 Record cause there is no 200 records.  The 200lb division was started a few years back cause the west coast they wanted it for some reason????  The 190 has been the wt divsion for the last 15 years when it was started.  I agree that there should be only one light weight class  which is 190,  other then the 200 masters of course.   Now for argument sake  in this system which again is not weight lifting,  a 200lb guy breaks the 190 record and now has a 200lb record.  THe 190 record would still exist, but if the 190 guy then breaks the mark that the 200lb guy beat then the record would now be the new # and would be a 190 and 200 record.  But seeing that there is no 200lb records that is a mute point..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 2:36am
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

... Mark Howe is a beast.


Fixed. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 2:29am
I was not saying that.  I was simply talking about your powerlifting example.

Using your example, IN POWERLIFITNG, I feel the 165lb'r should own both the 165 and 181 record. 

(and ftr, with regard to highland games, I feel that there should only be one set of records, but I understand I'm in the minority there.  I just think calling a lightweight or masters record a "world" record is disingenuous, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote celtuckian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 2:14am
Agreed, this isn't weightlifting, it's throwing, and whoever throws the farthest wins.  The point I was making was that there are two distinct divisions - Lightweights <190 and Masters <200 - and that there are separate records for the two.
 
As far as believing the lighter weight thrower should win over a heavier weight thrower, it almost sounds as if it is being advocated that a coefficient system be implemented as in powerlifting.  I don't really think anybody wants that.
 
If Thrower A weighs 189# and throws the LWFD 50' (again, just 'throwing' out numbers here) and Thrower B weighs 165# and throws the LWFD 49', do you then award first place to Thrower B?  No.
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("Which is BS imo.  

I've always argued that the lower weight lifter should get both records in that case.  But I digress...")
Agreed!!!  this isn't weight lifting!!! Clap
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Which is BS imo. 

I've always argued that the lower weight lifter should get both records in that case.  But I digress...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote celtuckian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/05/12 at 1:05am
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

Sigh...  I don't see why this has any debate or issue any longer
^100%
 
It is very simple...
If you are NOT a Masters thrower and want to compete in the Lightweights, then <190 is your weight limit.  If you ARE a Masters thrower and wnat to compete in the light division, then <200 is your weight limit.  It's as simple as that.
 
As far as the earlier point about records between the two classes, it is no different than any other weight group sport.
 
Using powerlifting as an example, more specifically the deadlift (since, IMO, it is the only true strength lift):  if a person lifting in the 165 lbs class deadlifts 800 lbs (just to throw a number out there for illustrative purposes) and it is the meet/state/regional/American/National (whatever) record and the deadlift record for the 181 lbs class is 795 lbs., the person who lifted in the 165s doesn't also 'own' the 181 record.  Said 165er only holds the record for the 165s.  The 181 lbs. lifter holds the record for the 181s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Detroitpete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/04/12 at 10:19am
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

Sigh...  I don't see why this has any debate or issue any longer? The division was created by Greg Bradshaw and the RMSA to give the MANY lighter throwers a chance to compete among fellows that will NEVER weigh anywhere near what it takes to be a top A or whatever. Mark Howe at his best was THE exception to the rule.

It has been debated to move the weight to 198lbs like most weightlifting associations etc, but 190 was decided, and has been established for over 15 years now. Why the masters chose 200lbs has been explained and is more than reasonable.

I thank Greg Bradshaw, Dan Dewelt, Bob Gillis, Steve and Becky Scott as well as my good friends Kevin and Lori Henderson for keeping the flame alive. I also greatly respect and thank my friends Duncan McCallum and Mark 'McSanta' for stepping up and working to try and keep the division alive. Some will disagree but they are wrong, there is a clear need for this division and kudo's to those that try to keep it going.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/01/12 at 9:25am
Sigh...  I don't see why this has any debate or issue any longer? The division was created by Greg Bradshaw and the RMSA to give the MANY lighter throwers a chance to compete among fellows that will NEVER weigh anywhere near what it takes to be a top A or whatever. Mark Howe at his best was THE exception to the rule.

It has been debated to move the weight to 198lbs like most weightlifting associations etc, but 190 was decided, and has been established for over 15 years now. Why the masters chose 200lbs has been explained and is more than reasonable.

I thank Greg Bradshaw, Dan Dewelt, Bob Gillis, Steve and Becky Scott as well as my good friends Kevin and Lori Henderson for keeping the flame alive. I also greatly respect and thank my friends Duncan McCallum and Mark 'McSanta' for stepping up and working to try and keep the division alive. Some will disagree but they are wrong, there is a clear need for this division and kudo's to those that try to keep it going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/01/12 at 5:42am
Tim I agree with you!!!  The only way I could see the 200lb records being achieved is all the 190 records would be the mark to beat and if beaten then there would be a 190 record and a 200 record, but if a 190guys breaks that record then they would have both the 200 and 190 record.  Example would be if someone for instance broke the 28lb record which is 75' and then a 200 guy hit 76' then there would be two records, one for the 190 and one for the 200,  but if a 190 came back and hit 76'1" inch then it would now be the new 190 record and the 200lb record again...  but if the 200lb guy comes back again and hits 76'2" then the 190 record would still be 76'1"  and 200lb 76'2" .  So that would be the only way to do it, but I disagree with it due to the 190lb class is the LW class that started things off and should remain the only class (it was the start of the LW tradition and should remain).  I will compete at any level though,  and welcome the challenge..
Mark
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