Strength training question from a non-strength guy

My background is sculling and long distance surfski racing.   Endurance power sports, but not strength sport, so I've never done much strength training.  Just casually casting around on the board here, I think I could very well be the weakest person registered.  

Hey, Greg, I know Gene Flynn came back to our sport after ultramarathons and such, he might be a good person to reach out to.  

@DL:  Not until I lift weights.  lol.   This seems to be related to high effort work, but not necessarily high load.  For example, a full out max squat or deadlift can do this, but, I can also create the same reaction if I give a CoC #2 gripper a couple of squeezes after 5:00pm.  

http://www.mattvincent.net/store-3/training-lab-2/

Greg,

I had something similar (I am 41) though I am coming from a strength background (powerlifting -a misnomer) going into a power sport-throwing.

I would get similar symptoms due to what I would label overreaching. My problem turned out to be dietary i.e. not enough carbohydrate in my diet. I was also getting a lot of inflammation initially, but all of that resolved with a modified diet.

I agree with the others here. If you are new to lifting heavy then start out with 60-70% of 1rm for a month with sets of 12-15 then slowly lower into the 75,80,85,90% ranges lowering sets and reps as you go. Ease into it.

If you are like me that will be difficult to do. I am short on patience.

Alan wrote: Find what works for you, and do it.

+1

Personally, because I am an investigator and an engineer in background, the experimentation and the physics behind throwing (and lifting) are a huge part of the fun. The spreadsheets, the analysis, the reading, the beer, the bagpipes, and hopefully the huge personal records make participation worth while. Life is a puzzle. It wouldn't be fun if you knew all of the answers.

It does kind of freak a person out though when their body starts responding differently to a new stimuli.

Well, that is good news.  OK, for a small fee, I won't tell Celeste. :lol:

Five years ago, my shoulders would ache something fierce after a throwing session.  After doing this for several years, now they don't.

I wonder.....I wonder....

You know, I have several friends around here who are pretty strong, but they don't throw all that far. When I watch them throw, I always get all amped while they're going their warmup swings or whatever and then when it comes to the pull/push/shove/rotate it's always this huge anticlimax.  I have on occasion literally gasped, WILLING them to just go HARDER.  It's like everything they do when it hits crunch time,  moves at half-speed.

For whatever reason it may be, and it's not strength, they just can't GO.  I honestly believe that they feel like they are pulling out all the stops, but it just doesn't look like it.  Is it a loss of fast twitch muscle?  Maybe.  Is it a mental thing?  I don't know.    I honestly think that I have a little bit of this issue going on, myself.

I wonder if you have the opposite issue. You claim that you are not very strong, that you are probably the weakest guy on the Board. Hmm, I have my doubts, but OK.  The truth is that you are throwing very large numbers in your stones and weights, and pretty darned good numbers in your hammers. So how is it that a not-very-strong-guy, in five months of practice and work, admittedly put in by a smart guy with a strong athletic background,  throws so huge?

I wonder if Greg York has two positions. On and Off.  Rest and Full-Bore.  I wonder if, when you throw, you just naturally go balls-out and you simply don't have any other way to do it.  Maybe you have lots of fast twitch tissue left, and you just default go balls-to-the wall.  BUT... but because you don't have a couple of years of throwing and lifting behind you, your muscles and connective tissue just don't have the structure to support it, yet.

The good news is, that I think if you keep doing this for a while, and even lift light weights fast over the winter, in a season or two you will have developed the structure to support your "go like hell" approach. .... if in fact that's it.

A certain PNW thrower told me a while ago that you were amazing, and I'll be honest....he said that you didn't look like anything at all.....  That nobody would expect you to put the distances out, that you do, from looking at you..  That suggests to me that the structure is not there.

So you're doing this off of some combination of balls, fury, brains and drive.  Which BTW is pretty cool.

Again, I'd say...back off a little bit.  Or maybe not so much "back off"  as "go slow".  Can you throw really pretty throws at 70% force in your workouts?  Maybe work at making your throwing form, perfect.  That is going to be a hell of a workout and you will get stronger.   Be sure to give yourself plenty of time to heal up before a Games. Be patient.  Do whatever lifting you can and find Greg Yorks Program.  If this is right, then in a season or a season and a half, this may all be a non-issue.

Just so you know, my first season I threw in five Games.  That was 2007-08.  I practiced once a week and didn't lift weights at all. I had fun and learned a bunch and threw LWFD about 35 feet and OS about 26-27. My hammers have always been good.

In My second season, 2008-09, I threw in four Games, practiced erratically and sailed to Hawaii, so was gone for a month in the middle of the season. I also turned my first caber in my second season, at my 6th Games.    After that season, and before the third season I got into the weight room semi sort of regularly during the winter. Like...I lifted 2x a week most weeks but not all weeks, between December and March.

in my third season, 2009-10 I think I threw at six Games  and finally threw LWFD over 40 feet at Woodland.   At the Santa Cruz Games  I finally threw the Open Stone over 30 feet.    After that season I  startd in the weight room and was absolutely religious about it. I may not have done a program that would be universally NASGA-approved, but I got in there very regularly.  I didn't deadlift or squat, for example. I did a lot of stuff like sit ups and dumbell snatches and lat pulls and my good old hammer wind ab crushers, and lat pulls downs and  bench rows and  machines stuff and rowing machine.  I got my first invitation to the Pleasanton Games.

In my fourth season, 2010-11 I threw at about 8 Games including Enumclaw for the first time. I started throwing LWFD well into the 40's and set a PR in light hammer at Woodland of 84' 10' by employing one simple idea..."wind on the right".  I thrrew at Monterey and set a mess of PR's some of which still stand, like my LWFD PR of 51' 1"  and my hammers PR's of 70+ and 87+.  I AD'd at ARdenwood and set my WOB PR, which may be the all-time high of 13' 6".    I went to Pleasanton again and got killed....Mike Baab and Al Stagner and Frank Henry were in town!   And again, that off season, the winter of 2011-2012 I was religious in the weight room, and did a program that was a lot more along the lines of NASGA-approved.  I squatted.  But I still didn't deadlift.

in my fifth Season, 2011-2012  I did ten Games. I went up to Enumclaw again but cramped my calf horribly during warmups and had to withdraw...sucks.  I set a new open stone PR at Monterey, but my previous year weights and hammers PR's resisted every attempt to crack them.  I started throwing sheaf and did OK.  I went to Pleasanton and took third, and fulfilled a goal of standing on the P'town podium at least once in my career.  I threw in  Southern California a few times, and I spent a week with Mike and Mindy Pockoski in North Carolina, working on basic throwing principles.

This past off=season I worked hard on a weight lifting program that probably would generally be called "NASGA-approved" it included deadlifts, squats, incline bench press and so on. I still did some of my "comfy stuff" as Mike P. puts it.  I think between early November and mid February, I missed about 4 days, total out of my planned schedule.

This year, despite frustrating results at the worlds, I am throwing the weights better than ever. Light Hammer remain stuck, so do stones.  I could PR in Heavy Hammer this year.    14 in the WOB might as well be on Mars, just like the past three years. However, I've already PR's twice in sheaf.

I write all this to illustrate my own personal progression to get where you've gotten to in five months.  Me = five years.  You = five months.   Yeah, I can seethat maybe the superstructure isn't keeping up with the strains that you're putting on it.  

Hey man, I'm much younger that you guys (25) but for my size (6'6, 300lbs) I am a pretty weak guy. I mean compared to my neighbors I must be a giant but in the weight room I just barely squatted over 400lbs this off season and I have never deadlifted 500. But I am good at putting all of my power into my throws. I'm in my 3rd season this year at Highland Games and I feel like I am doing pretty well for myself with numbers.

C. Smith wrote: Awesome experiment Greg, I love seeing someone figure it all out for themselves.  Alan is right about finding what works for you, but there are certainties that will work for everyone.  I do think (and I told Matt this), that I think his program is too much for some people, myself included.

Greg I just read through your thread.  I have never heard of a condition like you have!?  As far as your lifting- i agree with most is you should be doing  hypertrophy workouts..  Basic movements, 8-10 reps like bobybuilding.  Get some muscularity and strength to prepare the body for he riggers of throwing and 1-3 rep maxs... 
I was involved in Adventure racing and triathlons for about 6 yrs.  I always kept up with a basic bodybuilding routine while involved with the ultra endurance stuff..  I kept me strong while the slow twitch dominated..
However before the endurance stuff I was a strength athlete and have always lifted weights for strength..
timeline- age 12-29 strength/hypertrophy training, bodyweight 135-230
30-34 strength/powerlifting/Highland games, bodyweight 230-80
35-40 basic bodybuilding maintaining strength, triathlons, ultra endurance, bodyweight 225-207
41-49 Olympic lifting, hypertrophy, strength, highland games, bodyweight 207-313, now283
Build that base.
Have you ever thought about seeing a sports physcologist?  OR is this all related to the nerve/digestive system?? 
Keep us posted..

Greg York wrote: Ok, three days in and it's pretty clear what's up... Bad news... No "Hulk Smash" stuff going on here.  I'm not twisting myself to pieces.  Curses.   Good news... Proton Pump Inhibitors RAWK, baby!   Science bless Science!   The first dose knocked the symptoms down in an hour and suppressed them for a good 8 hours.   Symptoms returned and second dose knocked them down, again.   Still a bit of yo-yoing as I try to find level. I spent about 5 years on these things, but I was sick and broken during that period, and living on gruel and salad and brown rice, so I don't really know what they contribute to my physical activities.  But I tell ya, three days of acid reflux suppression and I feel supercharged.   To clarify for some future dude perhaps suffering something similar - I suffer from GERD in a big way.   My guts are hyperactive, presumably from some crap I picked up years ago in asia, my valves are burnt out, my nervous system doesn't register stomach distress, and my esophagus is a acid scarred wasteland.  Big time acid reflux apparently plays out in all kinds of evil ways, but my personal favorite is waking up drowning in your own acid reflux, then choking acid sucked into your lungs when you panic.   Good times!  Be careful what and how much you eat before bed! Knocked down the whole Training Lab sessions for today and had to make myself quit.    Eager to see if my recovery time is reduced and work capacity is increased.    All these wondrous things when you're body isn't trying to consume itself from the inside out.  Damn, why didn't you guys tell me you felt this good all the time?  :D

Easy fixes are easy. 

Awesome.

Damn Greg thats tough...  I hope the meds controls.  BTW- did you get the bug while on the water?  Some 3rd world country??
I contracted salmonella while on a 300 mile race in Ireland.  It wasnt pretty..  Sick for a 2 weeks.  Luckily it was the last day of the race and we only had a 50 mile bike and 30 mile paddle to the finish..  I was puking and s******* all the way to the finish..  Hoorah- just finish the race!!

Hey Greg, with salmonella you have to squeeze to keep it in...    lol

dl_buffy wrote: What a crappy discussion.