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Why have Pro level games?

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W. Barron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W. Barron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 10:53am
Hi everybody, been a while...

Ive thought a fair bit over the years about the issue of prize money and the burden it places on festivals. What is the benefit of hosting pros? Trying to justify a pro class based solely on ROI is logical and practical but also probably impossible. Professional Highland throwing just isn't that much more exciting than an amateur class. Those of us who know first hand how hard it is to throw the HWD are amazed by 45'+ but most of us agree the crowd doesn't really care. The exception though being the World Record attempts that you sometime see. These are just insane to witness.

By this logic, the crowds would likely turn out and cheer just as well for 35' HWD throws as they would for 45' throws. They probably would...But if you take away the pro class, you could also be taking away the likelihood of the 35' throw in the amateur class. Throwing far as an amateur, for the most part, usually happens when the athlete is trying to eventually get to the pro level. If the pro class became a thing of the past, I believe that it would accelerate the decline of Highland Games as a sport - including in the amateur class.

In my own experience, what motivated me to train hard when I was an amateur and then as a pro was the internal fantasy of my name being announced over the loud speaker as one of the top finishers in an event and in the hunt for a top overall finish. I wanted the top guys in the pro class to watch me throw and say to themselves "wow, Will can throw - I better bring my A game". Now, I was never a very competitive pro.  I was never a real threat at any of the big championship games. I was ecstatic if I placed in the top half of the field in a big competition. For me, traveling to throw in the Pro class was about COMPETING. I wasn't doing it for the prize money, it was the opportunity to throw with the best and be a part of a competition where people were making a big deal about it. The prize money just allowed me to rationalize traveling (get permission from the wife) to 10 - 15 games a year for 12 pro seasons and throw so much. I was determined to qualify for the big championships and perform well at them. The desire to reach the top level motivates alot of throwers to train and improve. But if there is no designated top tier class (pros) then the whole system of what motivates throwers is turned on its head. After a thrower establishes basic technique, what would make them try to perfect that technique? What would drive them to continually practice and practice throwing the 56 HWD or caber when they aren't going to get any real recognition for it? It is pretty inconvenient to practice these events regularly. Just being in competition with yourself gets old after a while once lifes obstacles get in the way.

Throwing is fun, its a social thing for many folks, people enjoy bagpipes, beer and sheepdogs(including me) - the list of reasons to take part is extensive. But for most of us, throwing is about competing and the chance of making it to the next level. If amateur comps were the only type out there, then it wouldn't really feel like anyone at the Games cared if I threw far. (i guess the logic being that if it was important enough, the money would get spent to celebrate it).

What Im suggesting is that without pros, there wouldn't even be the big time amateur comps. No amateur would push beyond convenience to try to achieve 55+ stone puts, 45' and 85' weight throws, 115' and 140' hammer throws, or 35' and 18' sheaf/WOB.

eventually, since it wouldn't really matter, the quality of throws might become more and more mediocre and the sport would become more hobby than world class sport.

I think that the folks in Scotland knew that if they didn't place $ incentives for strong men and women to learn the skills of caber tossing and hammer throwing, that the heavy events would eventually become a thing of the past. This sport needs the pro class.

Edited by W. Barron - 3/30/14 at 8:43am
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W. Barron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W. Barron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 11:25am
perhaps the better question to answer would be: If we accept the notion that the Pro class is fundamentally needed, how do we make it less of a burden on individual Games to offer them?


Edited by W. Barron - 3/30/14 at 8:43am
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Sean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 11:48am
I think the notion that without a Pro class the numbers would die off is a bit of a leap in logic. This is kind of the argument that the peak pulls the base up. Looking at the Ams now, it could be just as easily argued that the Pros have to keep pace to stay at that next level.

Now I DO think the pro class DOES make for a huge incentive for guys to push and work but no structure is ever built from the top down. It's a pyramid. 100 Bs -> 10As -> 2 "super As" -> 1 Pro kind of thing.

There's a big base in the US. This is why there's a decent deep field of pros.

Your second point though is right on the money.
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W. Barron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W. Barron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 12:26pm
I revised my post a little...
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Tim P View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 12:55pm
W. Barron : "...No amateur would push beyond convenience to try achieve 55+ stone put, 45' and 85' weight throws, 115' and 140' hammer throws, or 35' and 18' sheaf/WOB..."

I think, perhaps, you may be misunderestimatingWink the motivations of some folks. Not everyone is driven by competition with others. Some are driven by less tangible things. Even Pros who get paid to play can be driven by a pursuit of Mastery that has little to do with their relative position in a competition or the opportunity to earn a paycheck. 
Granted, the format is a competition, but I would hope that competition (and the attendant temporary pecking order of the day it establishes) is not what drives most of you guys. I've met too many people in this sport who are deeper than that and even if they walk home with a trunk full of swords and trophies it is simply a reflection of their pursuit of Mastery, not their pursuit of status.  
Simple ego feeding seems like a Pyrrhic victory to me, but that's just me. But if that's what motivates you, pursue your Joy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W. Barron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 1:20pm
I appreciate the distinction. The rewards of hard work and seeing improvement is what is fundamentally so fun about the Games. I was always in competition with myself.  I worship at the altar of good throwing technique and experience great joy from throwing.  If I took last in every pro comp but always threw PR's I could still be happy. But I wouldn't last long in the pro class.

 


Edited by W. Barron - 3/29/14 at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Satchwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 4:29pm
For the most part this has been a great thread. No matter what classes you have, you need a good announcer to let everyone know what is going on. For those folks attending for the first time it all looks the same and they have nothing to compare it to. Whenever I announce at a games I give the crowd a chance to pick up the 56. When you see the looks on their faces it is really funny because they suddenly realize that is really heavy and all the pros make it look so easy....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheThorpedo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/14 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Larry Satchwell Larry Satchwell wrote:

  Whenever I announce at a games I give the crowd a chance to pick up the 56. When you see the looks on their faces it is really funny because they suddenly realize that is really heavy and all the pros make it look so easy....
Satch
 
This is a great tool for announcers to use. It should be implemented at every games. The crowd definitely gets a better appreciation for what the athletes are doing on the field. Good point. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/14 at 8:42am
WOW! I have to agree with Mcbain on this.

As the previous AD at the Saline Highland games were we ran Pros and Am's. I would tell any festival to save there money on bringing Pro's in and focus more on better bands and beer! That will increase revenue not Pro's. Pro's take the game to serious where the Am's have fun and cultivates the audience attention. Especially if John Tracy is in the field!

But everyone knows how I feel about Pro's

Getting off soap box before I get another 5 yr ban

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Sim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 11:59am
Snider, you make a good point about Band's & Beer.

Here is why I believe the Pro division is needed;
I want to grow UHA's ranks as well as the festivals pockets. Equipment  & safety being equal what else would bring a strength athlete, hell any athlete, wanna be or Al Bundy type out to the field? From personal experience & what I have observed, true athletes crave the "next level" of competition. Strength Athletes like being the "Show" & the rest of us enjoy imitating them. By including & building the pro division here in Utah I expect to build the Am's proportionately.

My Overly-Simplified plan is this;

Finish building Organization > complete successful Am's season's > market audience to sponsors > complete successful Pro/Am games > market larger audience to sponsors > complete successful Pro division & Am Championship

The larger UHA's audiences are the better funding we can solicit. Better show= larger audience. Can Am's put on a great show? Sure we can. Do we all know how? Obviously not. Bring in a Pro/Am & let our top athletes spend time with the Pro's. I'm confident the entertainment value will improve. Our top Am's will feed that energy to the rest of our ranks. Each year will build on the previous. Keep this show running long enough & we can afford to host Am Championships. Which ones? IDK I'll cross that bridge in 4-5yrs when I'm confident I can host such an event properly.

I don't want to waste time running events w/ little to no long term return for my Organization. In that breath I also need to look ahead & plan NOW for where I want UHA to be in 5 years. County Rec games are our investment in letting anyone who wants to play have an opportunity. Pro/Am's will give the more serious contenders their motivation.

Worth noting is that my definition of "successful" is very broad & encompassing. I have high standards Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 12:40pm
[/QUOTE] I'd be surprised if the Am's in Alma get the response we do.  I hope they do, that would be awesome, but I'd be surprised. [/QUOTE]
I would say its very close.
 

I would say the announcer is what gets the crowd involved regardless of AM-Master-Pro. Getting the crowd involved makes it fun and entertaining for everyone. I don’t think most crowds are educated enough to know the athletes are Pro or AM. Sure they can see big throws if we all stood side by side but that doesn’t happen very often. Without an announcer telling them Pro's throw 2x's as far I don’t think most would have a clue.

 

With that said I am all for AM and Pro games running side by side like Detroit MI and OSG in OH. The crowd gets to see what it takes to be the best. Crowds want to see big throws form both sides. I think the spectators that return year after are entertained by the throws and the shenanigans from both the AM's and Pro's..

If the promoter can afford Pro’s I say go for it. But if you’re going to have a Pro Level game don’t half ass it. Make it worth it for the Pro to leave his family behind and travel to game. If you can’t then put on the best AM, Master event you can. Treat the guys you get like the Pro's you wish you had there. A little food and water goes along way for guys like me that travel on my own dollar.  The crowds will still gather around to see me through half as far as a Pro.Ouch
 
 


Edited by S McCracken - 3/31/14 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by S McCracken S McCracken wrote:

 

In typical NASGA fashion his thread has become a finger pointing cluster.



Perspective is interesting.  I don't see that at all in this thread. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Detroitpete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 2:16pm
I've cleared it with the ADs.  This year I'll be delaying my treck to the beer tents by half an hour, so as to sign autographs for my many fans!  I think it will add even more dignity to my standard decorum.  I have 8X10s available.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Hadley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 2:50pm
The Victoria Highland Games are a great example of what a pro class can do when you do it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 2:54pm
Vic did a good job. Jim really decided to own that one. Started building toward what it is now almost 10 years ago.
 
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Originally posted by S McCracken S McCracken wrote:

 

In typical NASGA fashion his thread has become a finger pointing cluster.



Perspective is interesting.  I don't see that at all in this thread. 
 
Yeah, I'm a little puzzled with this line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/14 at 3:55pm

I have withdrawn my comment. I guess I was miss interrupting some of the comments.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazy40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4/03/14 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by S McCracken S McCracken wrote:

I have withdrawn my comment. I guess I was miss interrupting some of the comments.



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