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Braemar rules

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Roland D. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roland D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Braemar rules
    Posted: 8/24/15 at 7:52am
I had a minor issue as judge in the last competition I judged (not serious).

Braemar. Right handed thrower has left foot against trig. As he throws, he transitions and right foot hits back of trig. So far, so good - but then thrower looses balance and his left foot comes around and lands outside of the throwing box. I called "Foul" based upon rule #4:

The competitor will complete the throw under control as decided by the judge or the throw will be ruled a foul.

The athlete accepts the call but another athlete argues that one foot is allowed to land outside of the box. Well, he was not under control. He lost balance and fell (one foot) out of the throwing box (not in front of the trig - which is a clear foul). Should this have been called a foul? Judges call? That is what I think. I thought the thrower was not in control - but was this too strict? I felt bad because it was his best throw ( and I have been in his shoes before). I want to be a good judge, but a fair one too. 
Thanks.
Could you make that throw when it matters...as it matters in battle? Could you crush a man with that throw?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 7:59am
I would not call that a foul. 


Based upon your perception of the throw, and your definition of 'under control', your call is fine though.... You're the judge, after all.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Natural Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 8:54am
In 25 years I don't think I've ever been fouled for that. Didn't even know that was a thing. If he was under control enough to keep both feet in bounds then I wouldn't have called it. 

But yes, judge's discretion rules (as long as you're applying the same standard to everyone).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 8:55am
I believe the under control clause refers to a thrower leaving the box area under control. If you land with one foot in one out behind the trig and maintain composure (i.e. not falling down, running sideways to catch their balance out of the box, etc) then it's a legal throw. 

But again, as Craig said, you're the judge and hold the right to foul any throw you see as a foul. 
Jeff Kaste



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Roland D. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roland D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 9:07am
Well that was the thing. He transitioned with both feet landing in the box, but then continued rotating trying to catch his balance so that his back was to the field with his left foot landing a second time out of the boss. Lost his balance for sure. I guess the consensus is that while "technically" it could be a foul, I probably should have not. At least I would have applied the same standard to all athletes. Thinks for the insight.
Could you make that throw when it matters...as it matters in battle? Could you crush a man with that throw?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 9:50am
I don't think I would have called a foul if they regained their balance and left the box in control.
Old enough to know better. Still too young to care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 9:53am
Respecting your judge is a key to being a good athlete. If I were the athlete in this situation I would have questioned it and accepted the judges rules. It drives me crazy when I see people get all worked up because they don't like a call. And most situations that Judge is a volunteer and they deserve respect. I am very happy that you are concerned about being a good judge and posted this question here.
Old enough to know better. Still too young to care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 10:10am
I learned a long time ago respect can only be given. (Tips hat, Myles)

Deserve is a very funny word...

That being said, I reserve the privilege to get worked up over any call I disagree with. I won't raise my voice (never do) and won't curse or anything like that, but when a Judge, or in this case, a team of Judges, tells me the rule to LWFD is:

"Both feet can be out at the start but the Athlete must finish with both inside the trig"...

Well, bless their hearts.
The man in the arena.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:28am
Ok Duncan, I guess there are some exceptions about getting worked up. Obviously if your judge hasn't read any of the Rules that may be a good reason to get upset.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

, but when a Judge, or in this case, a team of Judges, tells me the rule to LWFD is:

"Both feet can be out at the start but the Athlete must finish with both inside the trig"...


This couldn't have happened.  Just couldn't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roland D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:52am
I did throw for 12 years, so I have a pretty good grasp of the rules. But all said and done, I just want to make good calls and be fair. Again, thanks so much!!
Could you make that throw when it matters...as it matters in battle? Could you crush a man with that throw?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LJRed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/21/15 at 4:43pm
Sounds like a foul to me! When a freshman
in high school I lost the varsity shot conference
title. I was under control but toe touched top
of toe board?
Larry J Readman
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Roland D. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roland D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/23/15 at 7:31am
Hi Larry,    

Different. Touching the top of the toe board (trig) would have been a clear foul. The issue was one of control. I thought the athlete lost control as he transitioned with his right foot landing outside of the box as he wavered and struggled to keep balance.  Judges call, and I believe my interpretation fell within the rules. However, If I had it to call over again, I would not have called it a foul - but as Craig pointed out, the call was fine so long as I kept the same standard for all throwers.

Peace.
Could you make that throw when it matters...as it matters in battle? Could you crush a man with that throw?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/15 at 5:31pm
To the original question it may be judges discretion but that is not how one should interpret 'control'. Control means finishing with at least one foot in and no touches beyond the front line or behind the back line (no matter how ugly it was) and then being able to calmly stand up and walk out the back of the box. This is how it is done in T&F. I once saw John Godina fall flat on his ass on the reverse but he landed completely within the ring. He stopped looked around, didn't see a flag so he stood up and calmly walked out the back of the ring. It was a fair throw (and just a shade under 70' IIRC).

The reason for the 'control' language is so that a thrower who releases and plants one foot out and then has to take the other foot out to keep standing up CAN"T say "I finished with one in and one out" and demand that it be called fair, or can't fall out the back and call it fair, or step over and call it fair claiming that they released before they stepped over.
Cheers,

Carlos



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