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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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but it is based on an entire point scale for every event. everything has a hole in what should be fixed but the argument is why or how.
why should it be changed? why should it stay the same? doesn't really matter though, because it's how it's always been done! i always like walking into a new job and ask why something is the way it is and they say..... "that's how it's always been done." sometimes change helps.
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Dirk W. Myers
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bigirish01
Postaholic Joined: 6/07/10 Status: Offline Points: 1204 |
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The change should be No turn = zero points and athletes that don't turn caber split the points.
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Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Strongly agree. To create a special distinction for people who don't pick the stick is to create a rule that applies only to novice classes. I've never seen anyone who wasn't injured fail to get a pick in a good amateur class and I've never seen it in a pro class.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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so in a caber contest there are 7 contestants
Bart, Bill, Charley, Jim, Jack, Harvey, and Harry Charley gets a 12:00 gets 1 point Bart gets a 11:05 and gets 2 points Jim gets a 2:10 and gets 3 points Harvey throws a 60^ and gets 4 points Harry throws a 55 ^ and gets 5 points Bill and Jack drop the caber and split the remainder of the points (this is how it is scored, correct?) I'm saying (not that it matters just talking) Harry, bart and Jim get the same as above harvey and harry split the remainder of the points and bill and Jack get 0 nothing. Just easier to see who is above and below 45, than getting them a place according to what one person thinks might be a degree better than another throw. and those that are unsuccessful get nothing. Edited by hoss1 - 4/01/16 at 2:55pm |
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Dirk W. Myers
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Harvey, Harry (I'm assuming little h harry is different from big H Harry in your scenario), Bill, and Jack should split the points and get 5.5 points each because NONE of them turned the caber. Frankly, in a perfect world with a big stick I have more respect for the guy who realizes he can't turn it and so he sets it down safely than I do for the guy who also knows he can't turn it and takes a rip at it anyway and breaks a perfectly good stick.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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that makes a lot of sense. i'll agree with that, save the caber, flip it if you're able.
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Dirk W. Myers
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bigirish01
Postaholic Joined: 6/07/10 Status: Offline Points: 1204 |
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+1 Carlos |
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Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill
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swollenknuck
Senior Member Joined: 2/20/09 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 395 |
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Carlos you hit the nail on the head, I hate seeing good cabers break because someone who is about to loose it tries to pull at the last second to get some degrees from the side judge.
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Ray Siochowicz
AD Victoria Highland Games Association www.victoriahighlandgames.com |
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jwalla16
Groupie Joined: 4/27/15 Location: Oak Ridge, TN Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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We could go reductio ad absurdum on this and say that the point of caber is to flip it to 12:00 though, and that everyone who didn't do that failed, but you would all agree that that doesn't make any sense.
Seems to me that the goal is to get closest to 12:00, and that the range of degrees before a flip is just as relevant to achieving that goal as the difference between 1:00 and 2:00.
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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but the question is, where do the points stop? do we give partial points to all that didn't flip or none? do we give partial points for everybody that didn't flip or none? do we give partial points to a successful pull and none to non pick/pullers?
if you dont flip the pole, no soup fo U!
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Dirk W. Myers
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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It's an easy and reasonable action (last place points chopped for no turns). One that I will try to implement in games that I'll attend this year both as an athlete and judge.
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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so your saying, No points for unsuccessful flips or split the remaining points between the unsuccessful flips. |
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Dirk W. Myers
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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i left Charley out! oops, poor Charley
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Dirk W. Myers
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swollenknuck
Senior Member Joined: 2/20/09 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 395 |
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You can't give anyone no points cause at the end of the day the person with the least amount of points win the overall. All the people that don't turn the caber split the remaining points, meaning if you have a class of 10 people and five don't turn the caber, then you take 6+7+8+9+10=40 points, divide that by five and each athlete gets 8 points. Sounds pretty easy to me.
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Ray Siochowicz
AD Victoria Highland Games Association www.victoriahighlandgames.com |
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hoss1
Groupie Joined: 12/15/15 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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that makes sense, i was writing quickly.
so back to it. no flip= split leftover points
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Dirk W. Myers
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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Ray, As many games that use a low point scoring system (which I agree is the best/easiest), there are just as many that use a high point scoring system. People just like to be different, I suppose.
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swollenknuck
Senior Member Joined: 2/20/09 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 395 |
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I agree with you and should have clarified that but in all his scoring examples he was using the low point scoring system so I guess I took that as a given. Are the games that use the high point scoring system all out east? I have heard of it but have never seen it implemented out west.
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Ray Siochowicz
AD Victoria Highland Games Association www.victoriahighlandgames.com |
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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However, there is a very real advantage to using the low point scoring system. Specifically, when an athlete (or athletes) have to retire before the end of the competition the number of points for an event win remains the same.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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the no side judging method is already in play at several games in the Midwest --- turn / no turn caber contest
-- No side judging. If you do not turn, you are tied for last and split the points. If you turn it, you are scored on clock face. The reasons: 1. Side judging is more subjective than most judging in the games (everybody hates its). 2. As mentioned above, this should lead to fewer broken cabers from those who pull late and drive them into the ground. Spend some time telling the rookies how to lay the caber down also helps ------------------------- I have done a scoring qualifier on this basis (a mid class caber) then a tough competition caber. a. if you do not turn the qualifier you are tied for last. b. if you turn the qualifier but not the competition, you are scored on the clock face of the qualifier. c. if you turn the competition caber your scored on that. Basically, the qualifier performs the same role that a side judge does. The draw backs are: 1. you need a good supply of cabers, which I do not always have. 2. takes more time my 2 cents |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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Juli Peterson
Senior Member Joined: 9/12/12 Location: Cheeseville Status: Offline Points: 637 |
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This is the purpose for my original post. No, I don't want to "win" or even "place ahead" of my competition with a degree'd score but guess what, I don't want to lose a Games with one either. I've done both (if you're not first you're last.) Mark, you say that most in the Midwest have gone to splitting points among those "no-turns" and I respectfully disagree. This may be an Iowa thing but is certainly not a Midwest thing. The big guy has gone Games after Games where Caber is scored on degrees where even the Pro's aren't turning the sticks and, again respectfully, we both agree that it's B.S. (Sorry not sorry.) I guess there is some debate on what the goal of the event is; i.e. pick, toss, turn. I'm almost too new to have an opinion on that but when the announcer explains to the crowd that we want a turn closest to 12:00, I tend to agree with them. A no turn=no success. End of story. jp
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You have to stop doing that Juli, if it worked we'd all be doing it.
tosabarbell.com |
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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^^^
This is basically what l'm leaning towards at the Claw. ln the past, we used a qualifier caber, which was side judged, and a challenge caber which was not. l was trying very hard to avoid ties in the overall placing as we use pre-written checks to pay out awards and ties are very hard to deal with (especially in the Elite classes!) Starting this year, l'll do away with side judging altogether. l will, however, bring in another tie breaker which should further cut down on overall ties. |
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16lb-hammer(at)sshga.org
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no 'try!'" Yoda |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Juli,
I said "at several Midwest Games"... perhaps that is to strong. Perhaps I should have stated "at a handful" -- I do understand the frustration. my 2 cents on caber event is that the turn is what gets scored but it is not the only thing that matters -- you need to pick it and the bigger sticks you need to move with it to turn it. However, those things do not weigh anywhere near as much as the turn. I believe that picking and turning is a bad practice to allow because (1) those throwers who have the strength to do that will most likely be moving up the ranks where they will face big sticks that require them to run with it, so should start doing it early and mostly (2) I think moving with the stick demonstrates control and in my opinion the athlete should demonstrate control enough that they can move with it. |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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Wayne Hill
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2935 |
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I'm not clear on your point here. Caber is a really important event, arguably the most important. The winner of the games should be among the few that turn the competition caber. If that mixes up the results, knocking athletes down the standings, then so be it.
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"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Skullsplitter
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1047 |
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I hate having to side judge as this is tedious and thankless. Not only that but an entire competition result can be decided on side judging. Ever hear a big cheer for an 85 degree attempt? Not often.
When I was competing it would be a long quiet ride home if I did not turn the caber. As the signature event in Highland games, the caber is the event that I loved the most and I personally was only happy unless I got a turn. As a matter of fact, I had a games where I had a pr in the open stone, heavy weight and the heavy hammer but did not turn the caber. That felt like a bomb out to me. And other games where I threw badly or ok but turned the caber, I felt great about the games. That was just me though.
Bill |
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"I am the thread, the pupil, and the eye of the needle is my teacher"
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Juli Peterson
Senior Member Joined: 9/12/12 Location: Cheeseville Status: Offline Points: 637 |
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First off, the point of my OP was to inquire as to why an unturned Caber receives points (why measure degrees of failure in an event?) Secondly, my point of that statement was responding to Craig's question. To reiterate, no, I do not want to receive ANY points for an unturned Caber even if it means that my measly 45 degrees could beat out someone else's measly 40 degrees and I place higher than them. Nor, to reiterate, do I wish to LOSE out to someone's measly 45 degrees as I receive a 40 degrees. Both scores are B.S... we didn't turn the caber. I've agreed that athletes should take a scoring "hit" who fail to turn a caber, have I been unclear? As for "mixing up the results", um ya. Take this months Women's Worlds Championships; Katie Crowley was the only one of 6 to turn the Caber. The rest of us were scored on degrees. However; had the rest of us been assigned the 4 points shared for not turning the caber, the scoring for day one and possibly the all around would have been dramatically different. AS IT SHOULD BE. We're agreeing with each other Mr. Hill, not understanding how you're not seeing that. jp
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You have to stop doing that Juli, if it worked we'd all be doing it.
tosabarbell.com |
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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I'm not exactly sure about how or why the caber came to be? Was it to train warriors? Or to test your manhood? To build a bridge? I have heard all these.
In any case, all those years ago, I doubt anyone got a high five for not turning it. I think we forget sometimes that(at an actual Scottish festival) we are the entertainment. Crowds like big sticks turned, and not by everyone. Turn it and profit. Don't and split points IMO. Sorry Juli. This answers non of your questions |
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Sport Kilt
JDJ Caber Company Hylete.com |
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bigirish01
Postaholic Joined: 6/07/10 Status: Offline Points: 1204 |
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Well Juli.... All I have to say is Thank you! Looks like the some of the AD's in the PNW are going to implement the Turn No turn... This season! Newport, Tacoma and Bellingham! I have always wanted it as I believe it saves cabers and Time... and less time figuring out degrees equals more time in the Beer garden!
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Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill
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Silverback
Postaholic Plow Mule Joined: 8/29/04 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 4276 |
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It is amazing to me how we can take something so simple and over officious the hell out of it. A simple game really and amazing the variations we can think of and we seem to try and think of every single one of them. How many weird things have you seen from some goober judge who never wore a throwing shoe in his life comes up with on just a bramer toss? I personally have never seen this all or nothing judging with caber anyplace, including semi west, mid west or fully west, but I am sure I will be subjected to it at some point as we must change something.
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Mule
Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
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Stahmixson
Senior Member Joined: 11/28/07 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 255 |
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I am not fond in splitting points for ties. I think side judging is the way to do it. Same way as we do the countback on WOB.
A good Judge CAN see difference in a 60 or 70 degree toss ! Less stronger of 'bad' athletes also deserve to get points for achievement. Do we not also measure a WFD of just 10 feet ? That's the same for me, as an athlete tosses a 60 degrees. As time is an issue, I settle for side judging the qualifier, and only tosses for the challenger. |
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bigirish01
Postaholic Joined: 6/07/10 Status: Offline Points: 1204 |
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The object of tossing the caber is to turn it. The object of the WOB is to get the weight over the bar. If some makes a 10 foot WOB.. they got it over the bar... we don't give points for hitting the bar. Side judging is not accurate... Just like we a judge cant see 11:59... a judge cant tell 45 or 55 degrees and Ive been in competition where an athlete lost because of a margin that small.
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Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill
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