Caber Scoring

So...wait...hitting the bar in the WOB isn't an achievement we deserve to get points for?

HAD THE HEIGHT

I have a few thoughts...we all agree side-judging is difficult and often inaccurate but I believe it's a necessary evil. We're already telling the athletes that we only want 1/2 of them to turn the caber and if you eliminate side judging you're now telling them if they don't turn it the BEST they can do is tie for last, that's discouraging. We place every athlete in all the other events, why not the caber? How about simplifying it; only use 4 scores for side-judging, no-turn, 30 degrees, 45 degrees and 60 degrees. I really believe an athlete who can pull 3 60-80 degrees turns on a caber deserves to score higher than one who can only manage 1-2 30 degrees turns. Forget scores like 63 degrees or 82 degrees, etc. no one can really determine that with the naked eye. Drop the caber, no pick = no turn, pick it but can't get past 1/3 of the way up = 30 degrees, decent toss maybe 1/2 the way up = 45 degrees, good pull past 1/2 but no turn = 60 degrees. This way we can at least separate the not so good from the good.
Regarding scoring a tuned caber, I learned how to do it some 30 odd years ago by using a 9-3 clock face, it's really the same as the 11:45-12:15 method. Again, I would recommend keeping it simple; 5 minute increments from 11:45-12:15 and then 15 minutes until 9 or 3, i.e. 12:05 or 11:50 for the close but not a 12:00 and 9:30 or 1:15 for something further out. That's not any different than using the minute technique, I'm pretty sure they score 12:03 or 11:56 in Scotland; both methods use basically 15 increments to either side of 12:00.

I'm not all that concerned with how this all plays out but I do feel the comparison to WOB and Sheaf scoring is not an accurate assessment of how we should be scoring caber. When picking a caber we typically want about half the field to be able to get some type of turn. This would leave about half the field splitting last place points. Starting heights for Sheaf and wob are almost in every scenario started at a height that everyone can make. No heighting is rare compared to not turning a caber. Like I said, I don't care how caber is scored but the comparison to the height events makes no sense.

Nathan Parker wrote: I'm not exactly sure about how or why the caber came to be? Was it to train warriors? Or to test your manhood? To build a bridge? I have heard all these.

Most likely it was (b.) manhood test.  We're probably talkin' about a couple of guys drinking and fooling around.  "l bet you can't do this!!"  Athlete Charlie Black, when doing his Phd thesis on Scottish athletics, could find find NO purpose whatsoever for flipping a caber. 

Jay Holloway wrote: I've always worked under the assumption that distilled spirits and a pretty girl was involved.

Most likely!

Obviously, turn and no turn is all or nothing proposition.   This idea is a good one if you are better than average caber turner. 

To get to be better than average, you need to practice.  In that lies the down side -- For beginners and others who do not have access to cabers for practice, this sucks as they are tied for last place and hurts them in overall competition.  (but motivates them to learn the event)

Comparing turn /no turn to WOB is logic in the aspect that you need to complete the task successfully.   It is illogical when it comes to placement.  

Turn/no turn equivalent in WOB would be if WOB was done by:
(1) give points to those throwers that cleared the final height and all others are tied for last place.   
OR
(2) perhaps more closer to the opening height is set at a foot below the projected final height. (The caber chosen should be one that only a few throwers can turn, not the whole class).  Lots of no heights followed by a few clearing the opening height followed by only 1 or 2 clearing the final height.

<Note: some of the following is repeated from an earlier post -- I have been doing turn/no turn for a couple of years>

I highly suggest using a scoring qualifier, I try to make it a mid range stick for that class so that there are people who do not turn as that is the nature of the event.  Followed this by a nasty stick for the class.   (example: A new A thrower will struggle with a mid range A caber).

IF you do not turn the competition caber, you are ranked on the turns of the qualifier (this has the same function as a side judge for the competition caber).  If you do not turn the qualifier, your dead last.

Pluses:
This gives people more shots at cabers and help develop their skills
This allows the announcer to hype the event, by building up to the big stick
Hope that less sticks will be broken as the partial turn will not count leading to less late pulls ....

Minus:
Need more sticks
Takes more Time
Defeats one of the benefits - using more sticks put more sticks at risk for breaking.



Edited by McSanta - 4/07/16 at 10:19am

Jeff Ingram wrote: rknebel wrote: I'm not all that concerned with how this all plays out but I do feel the comparison to WOB and Sheaf scoring is not an accurate assessment of how we should be scoring caber. When picking a caber we typically want about half the field to be able to get some type of turn. This would leave about half the field splitting last place points. Starting heights for Sheaf and wob are almost in every scenario started at a height that everyone can make. No heighting is rare compared to not turning a caber. Like I said, I don't care how caber is scored but the comparison to the height events makes no sense. If you don't turn it, you don't score.  Don't clear the height, you don't get points for it. Makes perfect sense to me. The Caber Toss starts when you're handed the Caber; so I suppose the person who drops the Caber before even attempting the pick should score less than the person who tries to pick, and less than the person who picks the Caber but gets no run, with the person managing a throw of 30 degrees finishing higher than the rest. No turn = no points. Just my opinion.

Regardless if it makes sense to you or not doesn't mean there is actually any kind of logic to what you are saying. There is no comparison between caber and height event scoring. To score the caber the same as wob or Sheaf you would need a variety of cabers that increase in difficulty. Each athlete would get 3 attempts at a caber and once they turned it they would move on to the next caber. Using the "clock" to score a caber would also have to go away since in the height events you either make it or you dont. OR... for wob and Sheaf you determine a height that only a few athletes can clear. Each athlete gets 3 attempts to clear and if they don't then they tie for last, and the bar never goes up. Also, it would be necessary for a judge to determine, for the athletes that did clear, if the weight went over the middle of the bar or was a little to the left or right so a winner could be determined based on their accuracy to the middle of the bar.

Doing any of what I just said would be ridiculous, but not quite as ridiculous as anybody thinking that caber and height events scoring resemble each other in any way.

You're right...I was stupid for getting back on here and posting in the first place. See ya never...

swollenknuck wrote: Carlos you hit the nail on the head, I hate seeing good cabers break because someone who is about to loose it tries to pull at the last second to get some degrees from the side judge.

I understand the thinking behind getting some degrees out of the side judge. The second games I threw in, a competitor told me to just try to get some degrees out of it, no matter how little it might turn out to be. It wasn't a heavy caber (novice), but if I had decided not to give it a try, there would have been many that would've somehow taken offense at me not "giving my all."

Personally I prefer having the side judging too. Not just because I'm terrible at caber(which I definitely am) but because in most games I've competed, out of a 9-12 person class maybe only 2-4 could actually turn the caber, and that's even with us going down from the recommended caber. 

  Amen! A competition ain't about figuring out who is fifth, it's about figuring out who is first.

definitely agree with you Jay. 72 chances for the cabers we work so hard to crete & finish properly to be broken... it makes me cringe. Finishing the cabers the way Mark Markley instructed me was a huge success & I only had 1 out of the 15 get broken.

I used the bradshaw ratings to decide which cabers would be used for each class. I used the basic template of men's A's 8-900, B's 6-700, C's 5-600 & Womens A's 4-500, B's 3-400, C's 2-300. LW & masters got tricky as the skill levels are so varied. I then looked at what cabers I had available & plugged in sticks as close to those guidelines as best as I could.

In my opinion, selecting the 'right' stick for a group is one of the toughest tasks for any judge. Being able to consistently choose a stick that only gets turned by the top three or four people in a group is one of the hallmarks of a great judge. This is much easier with A or Pro athletes since they provide useful input as they are generally aware of their actual abilities and they have a good sense of how tough a stick will be. Much tougher when judging other athletes.