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Colin Mathieson 
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 Topic: North American Scottish Athletics Championship XIIPosted: 4/23/17 at 4:30pm |
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NORTH
AMERICAN SCOTTISH ATHLETlCS CHAMPIONSHIP XII
The NASGA database rankings were used to determine the twelve (12) best Elite North American male applicants and six (6) best Elite North American female applicants to be invited (however, neither Canada nor the US will be represented by fewer than two (2) men and one (1) woman from that page.) The Queen was kind enough to filter through the database to eliminate scores from games where there are known field issues and those that did not have a minimum payout. See the reply farther down this thread to read about that. Long live The Queen!
There are also five (5) Pre-Elite classes; Men's A and Women's A on Saturday, and Master Men (40-49 and 50+up) and Master Women on Sunday. There is room for twelve (12) athletes each in Men's A and Master Men but only six (6) each in Women's A and Master Women. Last year's Pre-Elite Champions, Runners-up,
Caber Champs, and new field record setters are invited first. From the
pool of applicants, the remaining spots are filled by the best athletes (based
on NASGA rankings), local athletes and by promptness of application. As always,
applicants not making the 'cut' will have their application fee returned.
Representing the USA: 1) Spencer Tyler - New Braunfels, TX - Confirmed 2) Charles Kasson - Lincoln, NE - Confirmed 3) Daniel Tennison - Wichita, KS - Confirmed 4) Andy Vincent - League City, TX - Confirmed 5) Nathan Burchett - Mason City, IA - Confirmed 6) Jeremy Gillingham - New Haven, IN - Confirmed 7) Braidy Miller - Lebanon, TN - Confirmed 8) Brent Miller - Gordonsville, TN - Confirmed 9) Robin Knebel - Sutherlin, OR - Confirmed 10) Damien Fisher - Ferndale, WA - Confirmed Representing Canada: 1) Matthew Doherty - Antigonish, Nova Scotia, CA - Confirmed 2) Rob Young - Calgary, Alberta, CA - Confirmed Alternates (in order): Jeffrey Kaste - Dover, NH Luke Crowley - La Crosse, WI John Pilling - Saginaw, MI Nathan Parker - Alma, MI Kevin Becker - Scott Hutchinson - MO Curtis Durocher - Calgary, Alberta, CA John Anthony - Wellington, CO Edward Brown - Mesa AZ Ross Bunchek - West Allis, WI Matthew Hand - Buffalo, NY Zach Riley - Columbus, IN ELITE WOMEN ~ Saturday and Sunday Representing the USA: 1) Jessica Bridenthal - Akron, OH - Confirmed 2) Adriane Wilson - Irmo, SC - Confirmed 3) Nikita Marzano - Philadelphia, PA - Confirmed 4) Victoria Bunchek - West Allis, WI - Confirmed 5) Elissa Hapner - Aurora, IL - Confirmed Representing Canada: 1) Susie Lojoie - BC, CA - Confirmed Alternates (in order): Chrystal Rubert - Algona, WA Emily Adams - Mount Pleasant, MI Katie Crowley - La Crosse, WI Heather MacDonald - Phoenix, AZ Stephanie Robbins - New Braunfels, TX Meagan McKee - San Jose, FL - Made the cut, could not attend MEN'S CLASS A ~ Saturday 1) Andrew Heaton - Lone Tree, CO *Invitee - Confirmed 2) Aaron George - Greenville, SC - Confirmed 3) Chris Shuttlesworth - Odessa, TX - Confirmed 4) Jason Spraggins - San Antonio, TX - Confirmed 5) Bryan Staggs - Arvada, CO - Confirmed 6) Luke Lomsdalen - Sedro Woolley, WA - Confirmed 7) Cory Frazier - Tacoma, WA - Confirmed 8) Ron Whitley - Marysville, WA - Confirmed 9) Justin Jessop - Bozeman, MT - Confirmed 10) 11) 12) Alternate: Pete Warmingham - Pinson, AL - Made the cut, cannot attend Garrett Blatnik - Memphis, TN - Made the cut, cannot attend Mike Beech - Round Rock, TX - Made the cut, cannot attend Greig O'Conner - Newark, CA - Made the cut, no response Roger Moon - Tacoma, WA - Alternate, cannot compete WOMEN'S CLASS A ~ Saturday 1) Chrystal Rubert - Algona, WA *Invitee - Confirmed 2) Heather MacDonald - Phoenix, AZ *Invitee - Confirmed 3) Katie Crowley - La Crosse, WI - Confirmed 4) Beth Burton - Chico, CA - Confirmed 5) Kara Bonham - Fort Collins, CO - Confirmed 6) Tara Neal - Tucson, AZ - Confirmed Alternates (in order): Kalli Conner - Enumclaw, WA Shannon Hamlyn-Burton
MASTER MEN 40 to 49 ~ Sunday 1) Mark Wechter - Oregon City, OR *Invitee - Confirmed 2) Joel Thiessen - High River, Alberta, CA - Confirmed 3) Lance Barusch - Kelowna, BC, CA - Confirmed 4) Roger Moon - Tacoma, WA - Confirmed 5) Max Sadtler - Port Orchard, WA - Confirmed 6) Sean Langford - Beaumont, Alberta, CA - Confirmed 7) Ray Siochowicz - Victoria, BC, CA - Confirmed 8) Anthony Shouldis - McMinnville, OR - Confirmed MASTER MEN 50 & Up ~ Sunday 1) Roger Saunders - Newcastle, CA *Invitee - Confirmed 2) Jay O'Neill - Orting, WA - Confirmed
MASTER WOMEN ~ Sunday 1) Beth Burton - Chico, CA - Confirmed 2) Karyn Dallimore - Langley, BC, CA - Confirmed 3) Shelley Murray - Ft. Lauderdale, FL - Confirmed 4) Tishia Malone - Coupeville, WA - Confirmed 5) Kim Dennis - Kelowna, BC, CA - Confirmed 6) Tara Spears - Olympia, WA - Confirmed I'll be sending out emails to those making the initial cut. If an athlete turns down a spot, the following athletes move up one spot and the first alternate moves into the Cut List.
lf you have questions, contact Colin Mathieson at 16lb-hammer@sshga.org or by phone at 206-498-3733 Edited by Colin Mathieson - 7/15/17 at 1:35pm |
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The Queen
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Posted: 4/23/17 at 7:55pm |
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Wally may be gone, but his legacy lives on! The Claw - where amazing athletes from across North America come to compete, and home of the one and only "Dinger Derby".
I'm happy to be helping Co-Athletic Directors Ken Shaw and Colin Mathieson run the games this year. I look forward to seeing you all there.
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bigfrazier
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Posted: 4/25/17 at 4:20am |
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I'm going to miss Wally like crazy this year if I make the cut, and I don't want to take anything away from his legacy, but... what are the chances of seeing some PVC hammer handles
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Colin Mathieson
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Posted: 4/28/17 at 7:46pm |
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List of applicants updated. For those of you Elites who have NOT sent me your Bios, please email them to me at 16lb-hammer@sshga.org
so that I can update where you're from on the applicant post and can have a bit of info on your background. If you think you've sent me your bio but there is no city/state listed next to your name on this list, then I either don't have a bio for you or you neglected to include where you are from. Thanks!
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hoss1
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Posted: 5/05/17 at 8:18am |
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i'm about 60%-40% about being able to make the trek to the north west (about 28hr drive for me). my wife and i are contemplating it. I can wait till June 24th before i let you know for sure?
i'm Masters 40, thanks
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Dirk W. Myers
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Colin Mathieson
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Posted: 5/09/17 at 10:51pm |
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Dirk, you can wait until June 24th. As the post states, the registration period ends just prior to midnight so make sure you don't cut it too close. Also, date of application
is taken into account somewhat when considering applicant order so please keep that in mind. Thanks for the interest! Colin |
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Colin Mathieson
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Posted: 5/20/17 at 1:50pm |
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Just discussed the use of 3/4" Sch 80 PVC handles with Ken yesterday and neither he nor I are resistant to the idea. We do however have a stock of rattan handles on hand already so we'll have to work through those over the next few years before we even think about making the switch.
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bigfrazier
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Posted: 5/27/17 at 4:34pm |
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I don't think any athletes will miss the ratan, I like them but fixing broken handles can slow the games way down.
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JoelT39
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Posted: 5/28/17 at 9:02am |
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If handles are an issue maybe things could be sped up with multiple hammers ready to go. Just don't restart the round.
I personally like ratan but it can be a pain when they keep breaking.
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Nathan Parker
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Posted: 5/29/17 at 9:05pm |
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Quick question. Rule 2 on the rankings page applies for all classes right?
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Sport Kilt
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swollenknuck
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 1:30am |
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Colin looking at the names signed up for your Men's Elite, you might want to check with some of them if they meant to sign up in the Pro class or if they meant to sign up for the Amateur's/Pre Elite. There are a lot of guys on that list that normally compete as an Amateur A.
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Ray Siochowicz
AD Victoria Highland Games Association www.victoriahighlandgames.com |
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Krazy40
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 7:56am |
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"Quick question. Rule 2 on the rankings page applies for all classes right?" |
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Jeremy Gillingham
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Colin Mathieson
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 11:23am |
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Ray, I know of one person at least who has stated they applied for the wrong class. I'll go through the rest of the list and send clarification emails. Thanks for the heads up.
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Colin Mathieson
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 11:26am |
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This topic about Rule #2 is being brought up. We'll get back with a response.
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Ryan Stewart
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 6:00pm |
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Hell rule number 3 would be nice too. Guys putting numbers in from backyard games. Should get rid of the awful caber ranking also. Guy turns a B stick and gets 900 pts?? Yeah that's the same as our 150 lb cabers (eyes roll). Lots of things wrong here. Time to fix them
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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Nathan Parker
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 6:22pm |
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Pros dealing with turn/no turn as well. Getting a a zero averaged in is nearly a death sentence.
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Sport Kilt
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rob meulenberg
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 6:28pm |
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Nate raises a very good question. The fact is that there are no backyard pro games, and as Stew points out, we rarely see weak cabers in our ranks. In addition, I feel that it is much easier to throw far when you have no competition.
The whole "Pro vs Am" debate is wrapped up in here as well, but I think having a logically consistent qualifying standard for a high level games like the Claw is a good place to start.
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www.sportkilt.com
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Ryan Stewart
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 6:56pm |
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How about throwing exhibition and still entering scores?? Guys doing that too.
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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BrainSmasher
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 6:59pm |
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Speaking of Pro vs Am... there is prize money for the elite class. Would allowing and Am into the Elites essentially be asking him to hand over his amateur status?
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Luke Crowley
Everything. All the time. |
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rknebel
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 7:29pm |
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There are some obvious adjustments that need to be made. The "Claw" puts out too much money and others work way too hard to be overlooked because of some "loop holes" that are being found. I'm not sure what the answer is but I don't think the current system is working.
I do think there is something to be said for using the current set of posted rules...but at the same time that hasn't been the practice for at least the last 6 years, so I don't know. I think if we keep doing things this way and there are guys throwing in the "elite" class that aren't throwing any different than half the "A" guys then somebody within the claw organization is gonna realize that they aren't getting the bang for their buck that they were hoping and the "Elite" class at the claw will go away.
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TheThorpedo
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Posted: 5/30/17 at 9:11pm |
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I know I won't be throwing my hat in the ring this year but I want to throw my 2 cents in the discussion. Enumclaw relies too heavily on the NASGA rankings. We all know it. I haven't been to a Claw competition where that subject hasn't been brought up and heavily discussed in heated rage. Guys putting in false numbers, unofficial competition results and just untruthful BS is entered every year. If Amateurs are going to start accepting money and competing with a more competitive class then lets drop the "Elite" title and start calling it what it is a Professional competition. It needs to be black and white in this case in order to bring back a sense of the best PAID professional athletes. I'm all for amateurs moving up and improving themselves but if you're going to do it, stick to your guns, take money and start throwing pro. You're not impressing anyone by putting in a 50' open stone from some competition no one has ever heard of before and then showing up to the Claw and devestating the crowd with a 38' bomb. This competition is one of the best out there despite throwing in a ring of kitty litter. Let's keep it at a point where people see great athletic competition and athletes that truly entertain the crowd. I remember years of putting my name on the list and waiting to get in, however my numbers were not good enough. So instead of falsifying info, throwing in the wrong class, I trained hard, got better and eventually earned a spot in a competition where I was under the impression that the best would be there. Keep this stuff straight forward! It's really not that hard but a lot of people are not happy. That includes Pros and Ams alike.
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"Crush your enemies,See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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Zach Riley
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 5:02am |
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I think all of these questions are valid and the discussion is probably good for the sport. I am only in my second season and I will be honest that I have been throwing anywhere and everywhere I can because I greatly enjoy competing and challenging myself. I have thrown in some bigger games and in some smaller games. I have competed with and against several people on the Enumclaw list. I have tied Dan Tennison on points at North-South (happily taking second on countbacks) and I have won 'A' class events where there were only a few competitors. However, in none of these cases have I had an impact on what a tape measure read, what an implement weighed, or what an AD put into the NASGA rankings. Again, I just wanted to compete.
If it is deemed that, according to the rules, some of my marks don't count and I don't get accepted to compete in Enumclaw that is fine with me. I would love the chance and I respect the honor it is to compete there, but I will just go back to trying to find somewhere else to throw because I want to compete. If it is decided that only Pro's compete at Enumclaw, I am fine with that as well. Hopefully in the future I will get the same opportunity. There are many things in this sport that I do not fully understand. When to send emails, how to get on lists, who to know and not know. That has been my only hesitation to trying the 'Pro' route is that I don't understand the game (well, that and my abysmal stones). I signed up for Enumclaw because other Pros and throwers I respect suggested I do so. I was informed that I might get some travel money and if I wanted to stay amateur I couldn't accept prize money. That is fine with me. Leave the prize money for those Pro's who have worked hard and earned it. I just want a chance to compete with good throwers and hopefully improve my own game. |
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Dr. Zach
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Trainerterry
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 7:13am |
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these discussions occurred when the NASGA rankings started and at the time the rankings were mainly used to determine who went to Portland which at the time was the US championships.
To me it is simple. MAke everything open... if you are good enough to get reimbursed for travel by all means be reimbursed well. Taking $50 does not a pro make. Having a games with funds and they want you to come makes you a pro. Only games associated with a traditional full Highland Games/Festival. No backyards. no easy way to solve this as the caber is a tough animal to place on a rankings. Most people lie about the size anyway.... I do. Prepare for hurt feelings because most AD's have real jobs and real lives and do this in their spare time while usually losing their own money. So if you get "wronged" by not being invited or just get loss in the shuffle prolly not personal. A good thing we have so much talent that this is a problem. |
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"A man has to know his limitations" - Detective Harold Callahan
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C. Smith
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 7:38am |
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Wally did this with the implementation of 'Elite' instead of 'Pro' (despite them being almost identical if the rules are being followed). The easy fix is that your numbers need to be entered under the Pro class to qualify, just like the Celtic rankings.
If you are an Am athlete and have attempted to enter the Elite class without following the rules that have been laid out, then shame on you for trying to circumvent the system. We have historically policed ourselves, no reason it shouldn't continue with issues like this. Back to my retirement, bye. (btw, the prize money thing is dumb, I hope no one ever turns down money. And +1 to an open system, which many of us have argued in favor of for the last 20 years) |
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TheJeff696
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 7:48am |
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I think as Pros and Ams alike, it's understood that the Enumclaw Elite class is there to host an open class, the one major championships where anyone who qualifies takes on anyone else. If I recall correctly (too lazy to double check) Tennison took third as an Am last year at the Claw and is now a top level pro. I also know Scott Hutchison and others have done the same. This is the spirit of the Claw, as far as I can gather.
Bringing this back to the original concern, it is when rules are created, and subsequently not followed, where black and white are blurred and grayed. If Rule #2 or Rule #3 cannot be followed because the database is not complex enough to filter certain games, then should there be a Rule #2 or Rule #3? I personally think there should be, because I know as an Am, there are far more opportunities to throw across the country and accumulate points. Talent, hard work, and networking aside, most pros are lucky to throw in more than 10 games a year while some Ams (not all) have the opportunity to do that many in just a few months if they desire. Hell, some can (and have) even created their own games because none were offered! Is this wrong? HELL NO. This sport is great and the more games that are created, the more we flourish. Should the numbers be counted? In my opinion, no. I see both sides of this coin. The easy answer here is "if you want to throw at the Claw, throw further than anyone else and stop sucking at caber". The true "elites" will rise to the surface. But as stated above by many good posts, eventually things like turn/no turn Pro games and backyard bashes may swing the balance of the roster at the Claw for the less than desirable.
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Jeff Kaste
"I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
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Ryan Stewart
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 8:34am |
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The #1 AM in North America deserves to be there as an Elite. No doubt. As long as the numbers are put in according to the rules. This is more about everyone else, not the #1 guy. Zach is a great thrower and is being coached by another great thrower (KO). He is not the issue here.
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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Nathan Parker
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 8:45am |
Which is why I asked the question about rule #2 in the first place. It didn't appear that the rules were being followed. |
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Sport Kilt
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Krazy40
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 10:10am |
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The Elite vs Pro debate is always good. It is what it is, its supposed to let the top level AM compete with the Pro's. I assume to see if they are ready to make that step up.
Taking money vs not taking money is whatever. There are only a few select AD's that would care if you take some $ for 1 event a year and then stay AM. If you decide to throw at an AD's games that would care, take the travel money and go about your day. If an AD complains about you taking travel money, then they shouldn't be an AD. As for Rule #2: This helps put the numbers a more even scale. Like Jeff said, AM's have a chance to throw 20-30 times a year. The top AM's getting 6 throws per event at every games. And there are more variety in field conditions, implements, judging, and measuring at the amateur level(not saying that some Pro games don't fit into the gray area). This rule pretty much says if you aren't at a games that Pros are at, it doesn't count in The Claw rankings. Some exceptions I would go with are games like North/South and Am Worlds in MN since they do cover hotel rooms and pays some travel that I would guess is north of the $1500 requirement. The only Pro games I can think of that doesn't have an AM class is the Celtic.
As for Caber scores: I have no idea. I don't think there is a "fix". You can't just eliminate it, because it is the sports premier event and then you are punishing somebody who might excel in that event. Another issue is the ranking board itself: It's pretty much on auto pilot. IMO, to get it as close as possible to being legit, there has to be somebody dedicated to it. Someone willing to go through and correct scores, pull out games that don't count, willing to take emails and phone calls from athletes, etc. But who's willing to do it? That's the question. I had a few other thoughts that have seem to left me.... |
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Jeremy Gillingham
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TheThorpedo
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 10:46am |
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There is the exact problem with the taking money debate. It shouldn't be an attitude of "whatever". It needs to be black and white. If you want to make the step up then stop the wavering BS and commit. There are several amateurs on the circuit that would fit just fine competing with the pro class but for some reason they don't want to have their adventures paid for. Makes no sense to me but if you don't want to take the money then leave the spot for a guy who will instead of taking a competitive spot and only taking travel. You're basically wedging your way into a competitive field and leaving someone out of the money. Sounds terrible but that's what it is. The games have a certain budget and if they realize that a few competitors aren't taking money, the association will lower the budget because they essentially don't need it. That's what I feel would happen if we continue the Am invite trend.
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"Crush your enemies,See them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!"
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Krazy40
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Posted: 5/31/17 at 11:07am |
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It is pretty black and white. If you want to stay AM without anybody complaining, don't take prize money.
Zach Riley gave the reason why to stay AM: "I will be honest that I have been throwing anywhere and everywhere I can because I greatly enjoy competing and challenging myself." He already has 7 games this year... I have 2. If I would have really pushed, I MIGHT have been able to get 1-2 others, maybe. I have 0 from late Oct thru May. So over half the year I don't have any Highland Games. I miss being able to travel and compete from Feb through Nov and not really leaving a 8 hour radius. That is why some guys stay AM's longer than they "should". |
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Jeremy Gillingham
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C. Smith wrote: