Nasgaweb Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home » Nasgaweb Forums » Training
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - NSAID's vs pain relief
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Database

scottishheavyphotographs.com Old Celt Equipment

NSAID's vs pain relief

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
dl_buffy View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 3/14/07
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1507
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: NSAID's vs pain relief
    Posted: 7/25/12 at 12:46pm

Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Indeed.  Here is a post I always refer people to re: anti-inflams

Originally posted by Kelly Starrett Kelly Starrett wrote:

All right, let's set the record straight about this stuff.

The Disclaimer: Medicine is serious busines. Always follow the advice of your doctor.

Sorted?
Ok. Ibuprofen has no place in the life of the athlete obsessed with chasing performance.

Taking an anti-inflammatory drug of any kind makes tendons and ligaments weaker, and stops muscles from getting stronger.

Is this clear enough? Yes, we used to call it Vitamin I. Yes, we used to say that RICE should have a second "I" in it (Rest, Ice, Ibuprofen, Compression, Elevation).
We used to also do "21's" on back and bi's day too. It's not ok.

Here's the low down. Ibuprofen is an NSAID (Non-Steroidal-Anti-Inflammatory-Drug) which is believed to work through the inhibition of cyclooxygenase (COX), thus inhibiting prostaglandin synthesis. Prostaglandins, are like hormones in that they act as chemical messengers, but do not move to other sites, but work right within the cells where they are synthesized. Prostaglandins are vital mediators of the inflammatory cascade. The swelling and subsequent prostaglandin production signals all of the important cells circulating in your body to come and fix/reinforce the challenged tissues. That's right, all that soreness you feel after Fran is the resultant swelling from all the micro-damage you've done to your muscles. It's this very inflammatory response that is responsible for making you a BETTER ATHLETE. The Worst thing you can do is to go through a horrible workout like Fran and then not reap the resultant gains from the training stimulus.

No good coach should allow their athletes to take ibuprofen at anytime. Even if they are hung over..

Why?

NSAIDs have been shown to delay and hamper the healing in all the soft tissues, including muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage. Anti-inflammatories can delay healing and delay it significantly, even in muscles with their tremendous blood supply. In one study on muscle strains, Piroxicam (an NSAID) essentially wiped out the entire inflammatory proliferative phase of healing (days 0-4). At day two there were essentially no macrophages (cells that clean up the area) in the area and by day four after the muscle strain, there was very little muscle regeneration compared to the normal healing process. (Greene, J. Cost-conscious prescribing of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for adults with arthritis. Archives of Internal Medicine. 1992; 152:1995-2002.)

Long term NSAID use is hard on your tissues and directly responsible from some pretty gnarly chronic body issues.

That's what he wrote a few years ago, but obv the ice recommendation has changed, and that video essentially added another reason not to take anti-inflams. 

---------
I have very few social interaction skills, so I just throw stuff instead.
Back to Top
dl_buffy View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 3/14/07
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1507
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 12:49pm
Given the above, what should an athlete do about chronic pain?  Pain not related to working out?
 
I am just waking up the the fact that I am actully in chronic pain all the time. Funny how it was just every day to me and I didn't know any better. The path to this conclusion was...waking up all night long, literally waking up enough that then I had to pee at least 6 times a night. Sleep studies showed I 'woke up' > 20 times a night. Three/four years of many different approaches I finally get on a cpap.

Sleep is amazing. Then I find that after the years of exhaustion have been compensated for, I am still waking up about three times a night. Hell, that is way better though and I was willing to live with it.

At some point I was in serious pain, don't remember if it was joint pain or just seriously blasted after a work out pain. Threw down three ibuprofin and SLEPT LIKE A LOG! Took a couple times of this before the coincidence added up in my head. When I take away the pain, I sleep. Who knew?!?! So this was so cool I started pretty much taking ibuprofin before bed every night. Some nights I did take ibuprofin as a prophalactic against DOMS because of this. After a while I started to notice some of my chronic joints really acting up in the mornings. In my own head I tied this to the ibuprofin.

(Yes, I know I should talk to a doctor about this, and it will definitely come up in my next check up.)
---------
I have very few social interaction skills, so I just throw stuff instead.
Back to Top
C. Smith View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 8/30/04
Location: Antarctica
Status: Offline
Points: 6661443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 1:34pm
I think the most important things is to determine the source of the chronic pain.  Like in the video posted in my log suggests, is it just 'congestion' that your body hasn't cleared from the interspatial area of the tissue or joint?

I notice a similar 'coincidence' with ibuprofen and sleep, btw.  I have the same sleep issues, but haven't gone the route of the cpap just yet (although I'm well aware that I should).   

It makes sense that the ibuprofen would negatively effect you, considering what it does.

I realize this post provided absolutely no help.     


Back to Top
bigirish01 View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 6/07/10
Status: Offline
Points: 1204
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 4:25pm
Shit I guess I should shut down our SPorts medicine clinic... we have been doin it all wrong....
Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill
Back to Top
john gallagher View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Top 10 in the USA - '02, ’03, ’06

Joined: 8/29/04
Location: Fargo
Status: Offline
Points: 424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john gallagher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 5:32pm
Finally a topic worth discussion.  I don't know much about this subject and would like to learn more about it.  I listened and watched that video you have on your training log Craig and being a massage therapist in a former life, understand about lymph and heat vs. ice.  What I don't know much about is pain control, inflammation control (other than the attempt to control via diet), nsaid's.  I have been a chronic user of the stuff over the counter and find it does nothing for me yet I still use it.  Why?  Cause "they" say it helps.  My chiropractor is really pushing me to use more omega 3...I have been.  Now he is steering me toward a product called Wobenzyme N to help the healing process and inflammation control.  I stopped throwing due to severe arthritis in both knees, and both shoulders.  Anyone know about stuff like this?  How do you control arthritis pain.  Every time I exercise.  So, I use nsaid's.  Does the pain get better after you are off the nsaid's for a while?  Like detoxing?  
MSUM Throws Coach
4 NCAA National Champions
50 NCAA All-Americans
2001 & 2002 World Stone Put Champion







Back to Top
M-BAAB View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 8/30/04
Location: Jamaica
Status: Offline
Points: 3515
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 6:54pm
2cents and bottom line.
 
Bottom line - I could not throw our stuff or do oly lifts w/out at least 1000mg of ibu an hour before - I take this to pre-kill the pain so my body will take  the strain and perform.
I never take it after and enjoy great soreness.
In preparing for the mwc, I took the 1000 at least 5xs a week an hour before workout just so i could throw/lift explosively  - was sore when i took it and more sore after - doh.
BUT , if I wasn't still trying to perform athletically at 52 - I would never take it.
 
? Does pre -ibu have same issues? hasn't been my experience. 
I have noticed a 200-400mg less pain feeling w a couple of tea spoons  of fresh ground turmeric in my shakes - check  this out!
foam rolling is awesome and will keep me in this game.
 
john - you were a massage therapist - in the last couple of years I finally learned about trigger points  and keeping the muscles happy to keep the joints happy. Is a lifesaver and some of my "arthritic and need replacing - nothing you can do " joints don't hurt much at all anymore.
 
How has your experience been ?
51 , 72 and 15 at 50
Back to Top
Sean View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic

9th Best in the World - 2010

Joined: 12/05/06
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3759
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 8:01pm
Ok, I'm going to chime in. I decided to experiment today and didnt pop my usual 800mg of Vitamin I pre-throwing.
 
Given how I felt DURING and now POST throwing, not only will I take all of my usual ibuprofin, I will also take all of the ibuprofin Craig Smith should be taking.
 
heck Kelly Starrett and the horse he rode in on.
Back to Top
Stanley View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 3/05/11
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 286
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 9:24pm
I've been through all the crap you describe Dave. I too did the sleep study got on a bipap and initially felt a lot better.

I finally did the sleep study, not because of my nagging wife-which she did, but because of hypertension issues which I thought were being caused by chronic pain which I thought was being caused by lack of sleep/recovery. Initially I felt 100% better and my BP started to normalize, but after a few weeks I was still having pain issues and unable to sleep proper.

I changed my diet to include more of the right foods -more carbohydrate- and the pain abated somewhat. I also started taking some natural anti-inflamtories (turmeric and serrapeptase).

When I started the turmeric I noticed that my gains in the gym just stopped. The pain abated but the gains stopped, so I strarted taking the serrapeptase which I now swear by. I have recommended it to all of my friends many of whom have back and arthritis and allergy issues and all have noticed an improvement. I don't own stock and I don't care if you believe it's crap. I'll continue using it because I have seen it work. I have had increases in recovery and decreases in pain.

For the past 6 months since starting to use this enzyme, I have been much more tolerable to be around, and training has been much more enjoyable. Do your own research. There are quite a few studies out. I have noticed some people report adverse reactions so go easy at first and check your tolerance.

PS I still wake up three times a night after a year on the machine. I also find I don't sleep as long.
Back to Top
Sammy68123 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 6/15/08
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 735
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy68123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/25/12 at 9:42pm
The prescription dose of ibuprofen is 800 mg, (up to) 3 times a day.  As far as other NSAIDs, I don't find them to be all that effective for me--such as Aleve (naproxen).  I've never tried Orudis (ketoprofen).  Other ones I've used by Rx in the distant past are Clinoril, Indocin (indomethacin), Tolectin DS, and Feldene.  Indocin really caused some gastric distress for me; Feldene made my eyes red.  I've not used Celebrex since I'm allergic to sulfa drugs.  Nor have I used Mobic (the new NSAID child on the block). 
 
I've stuck to ibuprofen (by prescription) since it works for me at sub max doses (I usually take an 800 mg a.m. and p.m.) and can add the 3rd one as needed.  But I also work on non-pharmaceutical means of pain management: exercise being the main one.  Being immobile--sitting in chairs and at computers--is worse than just about anything else as far as my muscles and joints are concerned.  So I work to stay moving as much as possible.  My long term use of ibuprofen hasn't turned up any objective evidence from my physician of any harm to my health.  If using ibuprofen helps keep me mobile and doing strength exercise at the level I want to do, then it helps me keep up the thing that is most important to my overall joint health--exercise and other physical activity.
 
Just my experience with NSAIDs over the years.
Teresa Merrick
Bellevue, NE
Back to Top
AlDargie View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 7/27/06
Location: York, Maine
Status: Offline
Points: 1784
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlDargie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 5:29am
What about aspirin?  I take a low dose daily for to heart health, but would a higher dose have the same benefits and dangers as IB?
Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy. - Outlaw Josey Wales
Back to Top
dl_buffy View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 3/14/07
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1507
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 8:23am
Aspirin needs to be taken with food to buffer the stomach.  High dosages in one shot can lead to stomach bleeding.
Tylenol is bad for the liver and it is lifetime usage that adds up to liver damage.  People end up on dialysis from tylenol.
 
Sigh...(The above are not researched, that is what is in my head from what I 'recall' my mother teaching us.)
 
I have never tried to take ibuprofin before an event.  I have heard of that, but haven't managed to ever remember to try it.  Honestly, I am not worried about exercise pain, I get that and I know I can live with it.  Back when I was playing four hours of volleyball on Friday nights...THEN I would take ibuprofin on the ride home because I knew how badly my joints would ache in morning.  But for lifting or throwing, I don't worry about it.  <shrug>
---------
I have very few social interaction skills, so I just throw stuff instead.
Back to Top
Sean View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic

9th Best in the World - 2010

Joined: 12/05/06
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3759
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 8:25am
Pop it an hour before practice or comp. Let me know how you likes it.
Back to Top
Silverback View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar
Plow Mule

Joined: 8/29/04
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 4276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 3:52pm
A subject I am very familiar with.  I have taken and over taken them for decades.  The two best I have used now available are Voltaren and Celebrex.  These are just anti inflams and not pain killers.  If you do one of these for the inflamation and then do a BC Powder on the way to the field for the pain you get the caffeine action with it and that is a great combo.  Now days because of the heart gig and water on me, I take the Voltaren the two doses prior to training.  So if I am going to train Monday afternoon, I do Sunday night and then Monday lunch.  This seems to give me enough pain relief to train.  Now doing it that way if you train 3 days a week, 3 weeks on and one week off you will take 18 doses or 9 days worth in 28 days.  So trying to get the ability to train and not keep it in me all the time.  You have to have it in there enough to effect the inflammation and get it out, if you just take it prior to going to the field you just need a pain killer.  The choice of nsaid makes a difference.  Ibuprophen, Alleive, naproxen, tylenol stink if your using them for the anti inflam part.  They are fine pain meds.  
Mule

Sportkilt
AST Sport Supplements
Back to Top
Silverback View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar
Plow Mule

Joined: 8/29/04
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 4276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 4:30pm
I think we can have two different things completely we are using these items for.  The first is the guy like Mike B or John or me that are not talking about an injury, we are talking about the state of the union so to speak.  It is not going to heal and be better in a week, a month or a year, this is what is left of what we got and we are trying to still make it run.  So regardless of what the homeless guy is saying in the video on C's thread, the stuff lets us run the crap of our lab rat for those few hours.  I still hurt and all that, it just lets me go all out when I need to.  Without it the pain is so heavy I can't stand it to make an athletic effort.  I am ok with hurting while laying there at the end of the day and frankly with my past medical history I expect to hurt a smidgen. 

The second is using it for an injury.  Then the homeless guy has some points and I can see letting something swell up and all the healing stuff and don't have the wife shave her legs anymore and all that cascade of wonder the natural body has.  Two completely different uses and subjects. 


Mule

Sportkilt
AST Sport Supplements
Back to Top
prevail View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 10/23/09
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 131
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prevail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/26/12 at 9:06pm
I have been following much of what Kelly Starrett has been putting out there.Alot of it makes me think twice about NSAIDs.
As someone with only one kidney I have been forced to curtail my vitamin "I" use.At least I have switched over to Diclofenac 10% in phlogel.Topical use is much safer and when combined with DMSO,really does the trick.
If however,Ibuprophen,has been found to cause long term joint damage we are all looking at a painful life after sport.Yes I expect to suffer from all the wear and tear but I will live with the pain now to keep my ability to walk later on in life.
LB
Back to Top
mthompson33 View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 8/27/09
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1369
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mthompson33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/30/12 at 3:26pm
He is specifically addressing muscle tears and micro tears from injury and training and the resulting inflammatory response.  He does not address tendinitis.  He does admit that there can be inflammation without healing.  I am guessing that there are conditions for which icing to reduce bad tissue inflammation may be helpful.  

He is specifically saying that for post training soreness and immediate post accute injury, do NOT ice. 

This is interesting.  As is the application for a tens unit to accelerate the healing process.
Matt Thompson

"If you wake up and you're not in pain, you know you're dead." -- Russian Proverb
Back to Top
brandell View Drop Down
Postaholic
Postaholic
Avatar

Joined: 8/29/04
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2433
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/10/12 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

I think the most important things is to determine the source of the chronic pain.  Like in the video posted in my log suggests, is it just 'congestion' that your body hasn't cleared from the interspatial area of the tissue or joint?

I notice a similar 'coincidence' with ibuprofen and sleep, btw.  I have the same sleep issues, but haven't gone the route of the cpap just yet (although I'm well aware that I should).   

It makes sense that the ibuprofen would negatively effect you, considering what it does.

I realize this post provided absolutely no help.     



CPAP FTW!  Wife refuses to use one or get tested and she has severe sleep apnea. She doesn't get she needs it.

I use mine and can't do without it. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.11
Copyright ©2001-2012 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.