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AD's, Pro's, and Next Steps

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Duncan McCallum View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AD's, Pro's, and Next Steps
    Posted: 3/13/14 at 1:03pm
Ladies and Gents,
I've been mulling this over for the past few months and finally decided to reach out and ask you, the folks responsible for hosting and directing Games, as well as the Men and Women of the Professional (i.e. paid) ranks, for some guidance.
 
This year there will be what is, by some accounts, one of the largest "New Pro" classes entering the next level of competition; these gentlemen will be competing for paying invites against more established throwers in an ever-shrinking pool of spots.  With the ebb and flow of injuries, retirements, transitions from the Pro's to Master's classes, etc., there will more opportunities for some, but not all.
 
Going through the past decade's worth of numbers, it seems like every new "class" is destined to lose one or two fellas...there just aren't enough places at the table.  Some throwers rise to the challenge of the next level, and others quickly find themselves miles offshore with no idea how they got there...they do not improve in a statistically significant way and either leave the Sport or are, for lack of a better phrase, forced out as a result of their performance.  I am certainly not downing these guys...as someone who might have those aspirations I hold them in the highest respect.  But I hate to see them "make the jump" and then come up short; I feel their absence from the ranks of competitive Professionals and, as a result of their new status, those of the Amateurs as well, weakens our Sport.
 
With that in mind, would y'all think about this and if you have a minute or two, lay out your vision of what being a "Pro" really means and what Amateurs should bear in mind before they decide to make that commitment.  What REALLY matters:  Numbers?  Travel?  Titles?  Once the decision is made to take the next step, how should we approach Games?  When should we start talking to y'all about having us out on a paid invitation?  Would it better to institute some sort of "Pro Card" for Amateurs, however informally?  Something as simple as "minimum" standards for participation relative to the Pro class writ large and not based on extra throws or even PR's, necessarily...a set of guidelines one can look to and determine if they will be competitive or not and to what Games their efforts might be better suited.
 
I'm not asking for hand-holding; y'all know I carry my own water.   But what I am asking for is some guidance.  As someone with a vested interest in this Sport and the folks in it, I want to know how we, as Amateurs on the verge of the Pro class, can be better stewards of the Games and what we need to know to step into that role.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlDargie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/13/14 at 1:22pm
Great post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/13/14 at 1:26pm
For me it comes down to what you want out of the sport.

If you want to hang out with your throwing buddies at the same games in your area every year because you like the sport, the culture, the comradery, or whatever then that works for you as an amateur. 

If you want to challenge yourself once you've become a big fish in a little pond, then one may choose to make the jump to Pro. 

That is a lot of what influenced my decision. In an isolated area like New England, I can go to about 8-10 games (depending on which ones are being held) as an amateur and win all of them (or close to all of them Bill Waddell haha). I did that for 3 years (my first year I don't count). I have been there, done that. While it is still some of the most fun I have ever had, going to these Am games, I want another challenge. That is why last year I put down the money to travel and challenge myself against the nation/continents best. I think I did pretty well and proved I could hang with the big boys of Amateurs. I also did it to mingle with the ADs and the movers and shakers of the Highland Games world to get my name out there.

I did not end up being number one Amateur last year and I could try another 2-5 years and still not be number one. So I decided that my numbers and rank and prestige as an Am allowed me to make the decision to want to go pro. 

It's also expensive. I spent all of my own money going to Florida x2, Chicago, Pleasanton, Minnesota, and Columbus (not including the travel $$$ I got for a few of them). I do not regret a PENNY of it either. But something Matt Vincent told me in Chicago really stuck with me: "Why travel to throw with the best and have to pay for all it when you could travel and pay for none of it and GET paid for it"(not exact words). That is why I decided to turn. If I continued to be an Am I would not travel as much because I cannot afford it and would therefore be stuck competing in NE for X amount of time. I know there are sponsors out there but so far I have had little luck with them and maybe being a pro for a couple of games will help. 

Sure, I am not going to be a top 10 pro this year or the next or the next or whatever, but I am ready for that challenge and to hopefully break even or make a couple bucks doing it. Also Bill Crawford said I wasn't allowed to throw as an Am at Loon after last year and I LOVE Loon so yeah that helped haha. 

One last note, if you look at the schedule, I do not believe the pro field is too saturated yet. There are a lot of games out there you just have to be proactive. 

I'm probably throwing Am at Albany for the sake of Claw numbers but otherwise I am excited for the next step of going pro and I hope that these are the reasons people want to throw pro. 
Jeff Kaste



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/13/14 at 1:36pm
I have some thoughts on this, as most people know...esp those that have solicited my advice before making the jump. 

I'll wait til there are more answers here before I make a post that will probably hurt some peoples feelings, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/13/14 at 4:12pm
Good topic Duncan. Its something that I have thought about over the past several months as well. I have reached out to a few Pro's, Craig included. I have set a standard for throws for myself. I believe now that throwing far is less important than building relationships with AD's. However, that is no guarantee either.

Take my home town game as an example. I have a great relationship the AD here in Alma. I've won the amateur event the past two years, and worked on the field the day that the Pros throw. Even so, the waiting list would hinder me throwing as a pro regardless of my scores or relationships built.

Waiting lists seem to be the norm. More Ams going Pro than Pros retire annually. Less opportunity when games like Las Vegas eliminate the Pro class. Not enough NEW pro events created.

At this point I'd rather stay a amateur and throw 8-10x and travel a bit, than go pro and throw 3-5x. I'm not at sword collector or looking for more sweet plaques. I just like to throw with other good guys, and I'm not sure I could as a pro. I'd like to be a pro. Time will tell, but I'd say the odds are small. I'll just try to throw far and be a good dude for now.

I don't have an answer, but it been on my mind too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Natural Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/16/14 at 6:48am
Originally posted by Nathan Parker Nathan Parker wrote:

I just like to throw with other good guys, and I'm not sure I could as a pro.

You couldn't, we're all jerks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Krazy40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/16/14 at 8:41am
There really is no solid answer.  I was a top Am the last few years, but never number 1.  I never won any big competitions as an AM.  My last year I got 2nd place at AM worlds, East Coast Championships, and North South to 3 different guys.  I still have 3 -4 events that suck, but i have 3-4 events that I can finish at the top.  I am a mid pack Pro.  What did I do to turn pro? I had 6 AD's that held pro events that said they would invite me.  Obviously being from the MidWest, a couple of these don't apply to you westerns, but the 4 rules I was told:

1. Don't be a dick
2. Travel a round a bit so people know you
3. Get Alex Duncan to like you (She does the invites for MASA pro events)
4. Don't piss off Craig or KO. Since they hold the key to many games in my area

Now if you go the other way: Just throw far and people will notice.  That would probably be more like Jake Sullivan.  He was fairly unknown when he turned pro.  Had a march games is AZ, threw some bombs and then he had something to advertise for the rest of the year.  I don't think he has much problems getting invites.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Krazy40 Krazy40 wrote:

There really is no solid answer.  I was a top Am the last few years, but never number 1.  I never won any big competitions as an AM.  My last year I got 2nd place at AM worlds, East Coast Championships, and North South to 3 different guys.  I still have 3 -4 events that suck, but i have 3-4 events that I can finish at the top.  I am a mid pack Pro.  What did I do to turn pro? I had 6 AD's that held pro events that said they would invite me.  Obviously being from the MidWest, a couple of these don't apply to you westerns, but the 4 rules I was told:

1. Don't be a dick
2. Travel a round a bit so people know you
3. Get Alex Duncan to like you (She does the invites for MASA pro events)
4. Don't piss off Craig or KO. Since they hold the key to many games in my area

Now if you go the other way: Just throw far and people will notice.  That would probably be more like Jake Sullivan.  He was fairly unknown when he turned pro.  Had a march games is AZ, threw some bombs and then he had something to advertise for the rest of the year.  I don't think he has much problems getting invites.  

^nail on the head

Although, I don't think Alex likes me so I'm pretty screwed in the Midwest. Maybe if I buy her a few drinks or bring her some coffee in the freezing cold (ahem, Ketchum). I'm still waiting on Craig to pass that good word on. Haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 12:04pm
I personally think there should be consistent a minimum distance. Consistent is a key word there.
 
40/50 stones
40/80 weights
100/130 hammers
16 wob
 
For the record, I can't even hit that breamar number consistently but if your other events can carry you the poor finish in one or two events you can still be competitive.
 
Biggest difference from am to pro is the cabers... sigh. I heard someone at the Arnold say "If Jake can turn the caber, it's not a tough caber"...
 
FML
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 12:11pm
Ahahahahahahaha!
 
Ouch :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 12:13pm
+1 to gilly and sully. 

Especially the consistency part.  If you happen to throw all your big numbers at your hometown games, no one cares.  Especially if you haven't repeated them any where else. 


This is the advice that I gave to Mr. Parker last year when he asked:

Quote My advice is a little different now, than it probably would have been then as the game has changed some.  In order:

1)  Have X number of Pro games lined up (X = the amount you're happy with doing per year)
2)  Be willing to jump into a game a a moment's notice the first year or two
3)  Spend your last Am year traveling to games with Pro classes and talk to the ADs*
4)  Get your throws up in the range of 40/50, 40/80, 105/125

*(No one cares about Am games, no matter what they are labeled, and those won't help you with invites)


Honestly, there is only one person in the Am class that will be ready this year and several making the jump who definitely are not, imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 12:25pm
Seems legit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazy40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by jsully jsully wrote:


 
Biggest difference from am to pro is the cabers... sigh. I heard someone at the Arnold say "If Jake can turn the caber, it's not a tough caber"...
 
FML
 

For the record, I said "If Eric turns this caber, we need a new caber"

Its all Sean's fault anyways that we had to throw that caber. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 1:47pm
Or just be really, really good looking... thats how Gilly does it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nkahanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 2:45pm
Great....I'm screwed. Spencer, you think you could help me with my 'magnum' pose? I just can't get it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/17/14 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Krazy40 Krazy40 wrote:

  
4. Don't piss off Craig or KO. Since they hold the key to many games in my area
 

So your saying they are the gate keepers if you want to go pro? Wink

 

One thing is for sure I have seen a lot of the top AM’s make huge improvements when they make the switch. Having good guys like Craig and KO coach a bit during the event really helps. There is no other sport that the other 9 Pro's your trying beat are going to walk out on the field and tell you how to make a change to throw farther. AD relationships has to be right up there. If you’re a likable person I think you’re going to get invites. 

 

Great thread and I stopped coming here and posting because of all the negativity. I stop by once in a while to see if I am missing anything glad I did today. Clap

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/18/14 at 3:17am

I think it will be interesting to see what happens when the heavies contributing to this thread start to consider what is required to enable Games to make the move from Amateur to Professional;  or what is required to enable Games to remain as professional.

One of the major problems with ensuring the survival of  Games is that for previously discussed reasons we currently have no collectively agreed short, medium or long term strategy for their development.
 
You will have noted that I have highlighted the word Games. This word is available for tattooing on the foreheads of anyone who does not understand that the future of professional Highland Games will at some point involve looking after those who stage them.
 
I can fully understand any Games undertaking an analysis on the return generated by their investment in a professional heavy event pulling the plug if the sums do not add up.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/18/14 at 6:41am
Gerry, 

With all due respect, I do not think your post is on subject of this tread on turning pro, being a pro, ....   

Perhaps part of the question of turning pro is the number of Pro Games and the future of Pros Games.  A separate thread on (a) whether games should or should not offer a pro class,  (b) the future of games, or (c) whether heavy athletics can survive as a separate entity is worthy but perhaps not buried in this thread.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/18/14 at 8:56am
Thanks Mark.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/18/14 at 9:32am
The point I was making is that ensuring that we have and develop Games that can stage Pro events should not be forgotten - and I would like to hear the Heavies views on how that can be achieved

Happy to let the thread continue without further comment. 

It is interesting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Daniel McKim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/20/14 at 10:56am
This is a great question, and something I've mulled over the past few years.  I'll give my thoughts, and hopefully some advice, as well as my experience making the jump. 

1. Get in touch with a current pro that has some of the characteristics of you and where you want to wind up.  This should include:
    a. Your region
    b. In the top ten
    c. Goes to the bigger games, as he has the contacts to help you.

2. Look at the Celtic board.  Work on having your numbers be within the top 15, so that you can work towards making it there, one day.

3. Practice caber.  Maybe it's because we had big sticks in the Midwest and I had to throw against great caber tossers like Nathan and Issac Burchett and Chad Ullom, but I didn't notice a difference in the cabers from am to pros.  Here's my reasoning why you must be competitive in this event:
    a. It's THE SHOW.  It's at lunchtime or a focused event at the end of the day.  The crowd is there to see you turn a stick. 
    b. Regardless if you finish eighth at in the overall, if you can turn the challenge caber, you'll get invited back. 
    c. If you throw the caber well, the crowd loves you and wants to meet you.  The ADs and organizers see this and will want you back.  This helped me to get return invites my first few years.
*I feel like too many new pros avoid the caber because it's only one event, but to the crowd, and the people outside our sport (organizers, committee members, etc.) it's the most important.  DON'T overlook this event.  You don't have to be amazing, just don't pick it, twist and turn and drop it, then walk away waving it off like it's no big deal. 

4. Most importantly, be kind, gracious and appreciative, which I'm sure everyone is.  Go and meet the shaggers, markers and helpers.  Shake their hand and thank them.  Thank the committee.  Don't leave garbage on the field.  Don't throw your tape scraps on the ground and walk away.  People from all walks of life are watching you.

5. It's better to wait too long to go pro than to go too early.  I think this is self-explanatory, but you want people asking about and requesting you. 

6. Network, make connections, but, again, get your numbers in the top 15. 

These are my thoughts and advice.  Sean Betz mentored me through the years and he has been critical to me growing in this sport.  Hope that helps!  Great question, as making the jump is a big decision and harder than you might think!

>Daniel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/21/14 at 7:46am
Originally posted by greynolds177 greynolds177 wrote:

The point I was making is that ensuring that we have and develop Games that can stage Pro events should not be forgotten - and I would like to hear the Heavies views on how that can be achieved

Happy to let the thread continue without further comment. 

It is interesting

 
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