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Does Size Really Matter in the HG?

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phatmiked View Drop Down
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    Posted: 7/14/15 at 5:16pm
Been meaning to "publish" this blog for a while.

Ever wonder if size really matters in the Heavy Events?  Take a look at the latest SGL blog where we run some statistical analysis on the top 20 HG pros from last season:


Does Size Really Matter in the Scottish Highland Games?


I used this data for a project in my Exercise Science Measure and Evaluation class last fall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlDargie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/14/15 at 7:16pm
Interesting read.  I wonder how that would compare to the women?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Damien Fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/14/15 at 8:10pm
Awesome study. I wonder if results would differ if a larger sample of lower skill amateurs was included, as nearly all the pros are fairly similar in height and weight.

A analysis of correlation of strength measures to performance would be cool to see as well, as at least one study found that for shot put, increased strength was significantly correlated with performance, but increased bodymass was not. Although, they only examined one thrower over a nine year period, so results may have differed with a larger sample.

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22832201


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote throw50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 7:24am
I think its probably fair to draw the conclusion that tall athletes have longer "wingspans" and therefore events where implement radius has a great impact on distance is where this is most evident

So, who gets to tell Matt Vincent that he is undersized?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 8:27am
Originally posted by throw50 throw50 wrote:

I think its probably fair to draw the conclusion that tall athletes have longer "wingspans" and therefore events where implement radius has a great impact on distance is where this is most evident

So, who gets to tell Matt Vincent that he is undersized?


I doubt that's a fair assumption at all. Vierra, Vincent, Gunn, Doherty all help disprove that. Tall athletes (assuming actual tall athletes. 6'-6'2" isn't that tall. Sorry.) have their own challenges for a lot of it.

And honestly, I'm a little surprised that weight doesn't have more of an effect on the heavy weight. I know I feel it depending on which end of my scale I'm on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 8:36am
The most interesting stat in that whole thing, honestly, is the "prototypical" HG Pro. Something I know Craig Smith has mentioned a few times: 6'2-6'4" and 275-300#. And there it is on paper - average of 6'3" and 287#. Dead in the middle of the range Craig gave.

What would REALLY be something would be the average gym strength of a pro based off, say the 5 "supertotal" lifts: Squat, Bench (or maybe OHP), Dead, Clean and Snatch.

I bet THAT would be enlightening to some of the up and comers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 9:34am
running the correlations is the easy part.  collecting the data is a challenge.  without a lab to bring the athletes in and do the testing, we would have to rely in self reporting.  self reporting always results in some degree of inaccuracy.
for example, i think if we were able to actually measure each of those 20 pros, we might find the average height is somewhere around half an inch shorter...   Wink

with that said, maybe this is something we can track next year;  get numbers at the end of the "offseason" and correlate them to throws throughout the season.

Would be cool to compare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Ingram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 10:03am
Interesting for sure.
You can add me to the group surprised by the lack of impact on the HWFD.

My personal experience was that I threw best at my heaviest, which was 330. Being honest however, that wasn't much better than how I threw at 285, a weight at which I generally felt a lot better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 10:30am
Doherty proves the weight vs hwd theory wrong with his 44ft hwd on the books.

IMO, weight really only comes into play if you're pulling the wfd and relying on a counter balance. When you stay in control and push the weight, I think it matters much less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 2:38pm
No, Doherty proves it isn't REQUIRED. That doesn't mean the extra bodyweight doesn't add an element of stability and (more importantly?) forgiveness for being slightly more out of position.

And it took that kid 9 years to figure out how to throw it for his body style and weight.

Again, if we wanted some other interesting data, we'd have to be testing all manner of consistency across different styles of weights, turf conditions, etc vs weight.

At the end of the day and knowing nothing about the two athletes in question, if someone tells me they're about equal in skill, I'll likely bet on the bigger man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 3:06pm
I did something related years ago (can't find the thread, it was probably on the old board). I collected data (height, power snatch, power clean, WOB) and looked at the relationships. The correlations were good, even better when I used dimensional analysis (see Buckingham Pi Theorem) to create a better model that corrected for the height of the athlete.

On a side note, if you've ever been told that size doesn't matter, then I can tell you what your problem is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 5:48pm
I threw plenty of 40+ HWFD (even 43'+) when I was weighing in the 230's.  

It was a hell of a lot easier, and more consistent, when I was 290+.  Not to mention a few feet further.  

Originally posted by Sean Sean wrote:

What would REALLY be something would be the average gym strength of a pro based off, say the 5 "supertotal" lifts: Squat, Bench (or maybe OHP), Dead, Clean and Snatch.

I bet THAT would be enlightening to some of the up and comers.

This.  Be strong...it's important.  

Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

On a side note, if you've ever been told that size doesn't matter, then I can tell you what your problem is.

And this, for sure.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 9:28pm
IMO to be extremely successful in the HG's:

1. Be very athletic
2. Be very strong
3. Be technical
3. Weigh 265+ at least

Very few are the combination of all four(Dan and Matt V). Exceptions to the rule are always there, Matt D or Scott R. In these cases we are talking about elite level athletes.

Others are elite strong and can muscle big throws, while others have tremendous technique with the throws(Sully).

All this said, I could use 20 more lbs on my frame and about 1000 more practice reps and I could be stronger too and, and , and...





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/15/15 at 9:44pm
Scott Rider weighs 260-265. And, I've seen video of him hang cleaning 385 for a triple...

Alistair Gunn was around 5'8" and 245 in his prime, I believe.


Not saying size isn't an asset.  This data set shows what this data set shows about the individuals and characteristics measured.  Remember what we consider "small" is still much larger than the majority of humans on the planet. 

I found it very interesting that weight correlated most to the hammers.  This makes some sense when you think about the limited ability of the athlete to position his body to counter since the feet are fixed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/21/15 at 9:51am
Revision has been completed and posted.  The original link still works.

The findings are perhaps more interesting than before.  And, now include p values.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/21/15 at 10:25am
you sure Rider is 265? I could've swore he said he was 245 last year at Pton.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrPeanut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/21/15 at 11:15am
I have been wondering about this since I started throwing, being on the taller side. My view was it would be harder for taller athletes.

Having a larger radius does not necessarily mean the ability to apply greater force with a HWFD using long arms at the edge of the rotational circumference.

In addition the greater height produces additional stress on the center as the acting of spinning requires more significant counter-balance for taller individuals.

Just my two cents.

    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Natural Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/21/15 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by jsully jsully wrote:

you sure Rider is 265? I could've swore he said he was 245 last year at Pton.

The guy's a notorious liar. He's not even English.
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