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Flexbility effecting throws?

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J Payne View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12/18/07 at 7:57pm

Was wondering how many of you guys felt flexibility was a key factor that can effect throws. The other day I was think about how much (if any) it might effect the hammer and got to wondering about the other events as well.

It's a given that flexibility is important in any physical endeavor, but I was curious about more throw specific stuff.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:53am
I think so, in all events not just hammer. but certin hammer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JWC III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/07 at 7:13am

My throws went up a notch when I started working hard on my shoulder, spine, and hip flexibility.  I'm much more flexible and my throws have shot up, in my opinion, a direct result.  Here is the basic routine I've followed for the past year or so.

 

Active Recovery/Warm up Routine:  “The Dozen”


Basic Design:
1. All exercises are progressive(each rep you attempt to increase range of motion)
2. Intended for right before workout (Warm up) or stand alone (Active Recovery).      
3. Preferred all exercises, but can be limited to exercises that specify muscles to be used
4. Exercises done with weights, but not limit lifting, just enough weight to create a stretch in the muscle. Usually around 25 to 33% of max

5. NO bouncing.  Each rep is smooth and slow.

Exercises
1.  Seated Twists: Progressive seated twist with weighted bar
        Rep Range 100 to 500     Purpose:  Stretch spine


2. Shoulder Dislocates: Progressive (choke up on bar each rep)
        Rep Range 10 to 20         Purpose:  Full Shoulder flexibility

3. Bench Press to Neck:  Wide Grip/Elbows out
        Rep Range 10 to 20         Purpose:  Stretch Pecs, Rotator Cuff

4. Dead Hang from Bar: Hang from bar for max time/relaxed body
        Rep Range:  max time      Purpose:  Traction back, build grip

5. Reverse Hyper: Traditional Reverse Hypers
        Rep Range: 10 to 20        Purpose: Traction spine and isolate spinal erectors

 

6.  Reverse Hyper: Dino Gym Style:  Reverse Hyper/Leg Curl

        Rep Range:  10 to 20       Purpose:  Full range hamstring warm up

7. Stiff Leg Deadlift: On bench to get max stretch, each rep go lower to full stretch
        Rep Range: 10 to 20        Purpose:  Stretch Hamstrings

8. JWC Tricep Extension/Stretch:  Strap on bar, push under and thru using tri’s. 
        Rep Range: 10 to 20        Purpose:  Stretch and warm up triceps

9. Old School Split Snatch Lunges: Trail leg well back, in rock bottom position, once in the

        split, try to relax and sink.  Each successive “sinking” is a rep.
        Rep Range:10 to 20         Purpose:  Psoas (hip flexors), ankles

10. Bare foot Calf Raise: Standing calf raise barefooted/good stretch at the bottom.
        Rep Range: 10 to 20        Purpose:  Stretch calves, ankles

 

11. Seated Good Morning:  Good morning in a seated position

        Rep Range:  10 to 20       Purpose:  Glute/hammy stretch

 

12.  Sitting “Man Style”:  Piriformis Stretch

        Rep Range: 10 to 20        Purpose:  Piriformis hip stretch

 

Thom Van Vleck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J Payne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/07 at 7:37am
Now the back, shoulders and hips were what got me to thinking about the hammer. The lats in particular.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach Mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/07 at 4:39pm

FLEXIBILITY will increase your RANGE of MOTION    This is a big deal if your naturally tight and in-flexible

 

WHEN to STRETCH:

Based on the research, the best time to stretch is either after a workout, when the soft tissues are warm and pliable, or as a stand-alone workout that won’t be followed by anything powerful or intense. For example, you can stretch at your desk for as little as five minutes or at the end of the day for as long as 30 minutes. You can stretch after a vigorous weight-training workout or soccer game. But you shouldn’t stretch before your weight-training workout or soccer game. Instead, warm up lightly in a way that gently introduces your muscles to the upcoming activity, and save your stretching for after the activity is over.

I know that many of you reading this have been stretching before your workout for years, and what I’m saying might be a bit of a shock. In my experience, people who stretch before they work out are attached to doing it that way and very reluctant to change. In fact, many of my clients and athletes insist they absolutely do find that pre-exercise stretching helps with their performance, range of motion, and power when they work out or play a sport.

It’s hard to argue with what feels right for any particular person. So, take what I’m saying to heart (because the research is persuasive), but if you do stretch before you exercise, that doesn’t mean you’re automatically going to get injured. In fact, it might not harm your performance at all. Just remember that there’s no indication that stretching will help your performance or reduce your risk of injury if you do it before you work out or play a sport.

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Rob " Coach Mac " Mac Kay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazy40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 4:21am

I was told to only be as flexible as you need to be.  If you are over flexible, it takes away from your strech reflex. Which I haven't done the other events enough to know if it hurts those, but It does affect the stone throw.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 6:44am
Coach, I have been the typical.  I ride the bike a lap and then sit down and do a routine of stretching and then start my warmup and then into the movement. Should I just move the stretching to the end of the workout?  Leave the other stuff the same?  My bones and the things attached hurt me a lot and I am trying to avoid injury.   I guess the obvious things I am searching for with my stretch.  Please suggest.  I appreciate all the information, your blowing me away with it all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 7:58am
Originally posted by Krazy40 Krazy40 wrote:

If you are over flexible, it takes away from your strech reflex.

Sorry, but I think you are confusing being flexible with doing serious stretching right before lifting, which some studies have suggested can reduce one's with the stretch reflex (I have copied the results of one such study below). So do your serious stretching after your workouts, but definitely do it. Now, at some very extreme point, being overly flexible might compromise joint stability, but this is just not going to happen to a thrower or anyone who lifts heavy weights.  Many top discus throwers, most javelin throwers, and many great Olympic lifters (not to mention various jumpers etc.) have been very flexible and it hasn't hurt their performances at all.  Almost certainly the opposite.  I am curious what Mike "Rubberman" Baab has to say about this one! Terry Smith might also have something interesting to add.

 

Myles,

Definitely move any serious stretching to the end of your workouts, but do as much as possible.  Prior to your workouts, you should do a very easy jog or bike until you begin to warm up, then move into a dynamic warm-up.  I was introduced to this type of warm-up back in the mid-1980's by my second coach, who was from Poland.  I found something similar after a quick web search and have copied it below. Let me know if you have any questions.

J Appl Physiol 86: 1283-1291, 1999;
8750-7587/99 $5.00

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Vol. 86, Issue 4, 1283-1291, April 1999

Altered reflex sensitivity after repeated and prolonged passive muscle stretching

Janne Avela, Heikki Kyröläinen, and Paavo V. Komi

Neuromuscular Research Center, Department of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyväskylä, FIN-40100 Jyväskylä, Finland

Experiments were carried out to test the effect of prolonged and repeated passive stretching (RPS) of the triceps surae muscle on reflex sensitivity. The results demonstrated a clear deterioration of muscle function immediately after RPS. Maximal voluntary contraction, average electromyographic activity of the gastrocnemius and soleus muscles, and zero crossing rate of the soleus muscle (recorded from 50% maximal voluntary contraction) decreased on average by 23.2, 19.9, 16.5, and 12.2%, respectively. These changes were associated with a clear immediate reduction in the reflex sensitivity; stretch reflex peak-to-peak amplitude decreased by 84.8%, and the ratio of the electrically induced maximal Hoffmann reflex to the maximal mass compound action potential decreased by 43.8%. Interestingly, a significant (P < 0.01) reduction in the stretch-resisting force of the measured muscles was observed. Serum creatine kinase activity stayed unaltered. This study presents evidence that the mechanism that decreases the sensitivity of short-latency reflexes can be activated because of RPS. The origin of this system seems to be a reduction in the activity of the large-diameter afferents, resulting from the reduced sensitivity of the muscle spindles to repeated stretch.

Warm up exercises: your old-style warm-up exercises may need updating

It is a common human failing to look very hard – maybe too hard – at something and still fail to see what’s staring you in the face. This may explain why coaches and athletes have continued to keep faith with the old-style warm-up despite mounting evidence that it doesn’t do what it says on the tin.

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It’s a given that we need to warm up before we sprint, hit a tennis ball or attempt a clean and jerk. The process prepares us mentally and physically for the task ahead. Traditionally, athletes from most sports have been used to raising their body temperature with 5-15 minutes of gentle cardiovascular (CV) work and then stretching off. As a long jump athlete, I can remember jogging a couple of laps to get really warm, then sitting and chatting for the next half an hour while supposedly stretching. By the time the session started, I’d often be cold both physically and mentally. My body would have switched off and I would be far from optimally prepared for the dynamic activity to follow; in fact I would literally have to warm up all over again.

Stretching was a major component of the ‘old’ warm-up, with coaches constantly reminding me that my range of movement had to be improved. But, with hindsight, the impact on my long jump performance of being able to do the box splits or clutch one hand to the other behind my back seems negligible.

The ‘new’ theory about warm-ups is that we should replace the old generalist approach with a much more dynamic, focused routine, specifically tailored to our chosen sport. The various drills we employ need to warm up our muscles specifically for the movements that will be required of them in the activity to follow. In this way specific neuromuscular patterning will be switched on and specific, functional range of movement developed.

It seems obvious, yet for some this is an almost revelatory concept. Former national track and field coach Tom McNab spoke at a recent PP meeting of the challenge that will need to be faced by coaches up and down the country, many of whom will have to turn their old ideas on their heads. Athletes, too, will need convincing to throw out the old concepts about warm-ups and usher in the new.

But, in fact, the dynamic, focused warm-up is not as new a concept as it appears. Athletes from the former Soviet Bloc were using these types of warm-ups as far back as the 1970s – decades before they came to mainstream attention in the West. I remember attending a training course with former long jump world record-holder and (at the time) head Soviet coach Igor Ter-Ovanesian in the early 80s, and being put through a short, sharp warm-up, comprising star-jumps and various agility moves. On receiving the instruction to warm up, all athletes attending the course had begun by plodding round the track, only to be called back by an exasperated Ter-Ovanesian and instructed in the ‘new way’. Yet so entrenched were our ideas – and those of our coaches – on warming up that we failed to take this lesson to heart.

How, then, should we warm up? The following guidance will work for runners and players of running-based sport, who need to be flexible enough to run efficiently in terms of power, relaxation and injury avoidance and (in running-based sports) to make quick changes of direction. For such athletes, specific range of movement will be required in the shoulders, lower back, hips, hamstrings, quads, calf muscles and achilles tendons. But preparing these areas for dynamic activity does not require lengthy periods of passive stretching.

First, raise your body temperature with 5-10 minutes of gentle CV work. Slow-paced running is, after all, a very specific way to warm up your muscles for faster-paced efforts, and there is still a need to prepare the CV system for more strenuous exertions. It is possible to incorporate many of the moves described below into a type of seamless warm-up – ie by interspersing them with periods of jogging. But it is probably best to move gradually towards this goal over time – especially if you have always used the traditional, more staid, warm-up approach.

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You can increase the speed component of many of the drills as you become more proficient at performing them. This will ‘fire up’ your nervous system and increase the strength of your muscles for handling more dynamic contractions.

Performing these drills can also reduce the risk of common running injuries, such as shin splints, and can ‘protect’ the knee and ankle joints. Always think about being ‘light’ on your feet.

Aim to perform each of the exercises below over 10-15m, with a walk back or jogging recovery. It should be enough to perform 3-4 reps of each.

  • Lunge walk – for loosening up the hips, improving leg drive and strengthening the butt and hamstrings. Assume a lunge position and step forwards into another lunge. Keep your chest up, look straight ahead and co-ordinate your arms with your legs;
  • High knee lift – for hip flexor and ankle strength. Extend up onto the toes and lift each thigh to a position parallel with the ground as you move forwards;
  • Elbow-to-inside-of-ankle lunge – for hip flexibility, hamstring strength and stretching out the lower back. Similar to the lunge walk, but extend your trunk forwards over your front leg. If your right leg was in front of you, you would take the right elbow down toward the inside of the right ankle. Watch your balance!
  • Calf walk – for lower limb strength and achilles flexibility. Extending the ankle on each step will warm up the calf muscles and achilles tendons;
  • Sideways and backwards skipping/running – for lower limb strength, agility and flexibility.

Other useful warm-up exercises include:

  • Simulated running arm action, standing or seated. The seated version is also great for specific core stability, as you have to work hard to maintain stability on the ground. Perform for 15-60 seconds, altering your speed of movement;
  • Leg drives. Lean forwards against a wall, with your hands out at shoulder level and your feet shoulder-width apart and approximately a metre from the wall. Look straight ahead and keep your body straight. Lift your right leg, with the knee bent, until the upper thigh is parallel to the ground. From your hip, drive the leg back, so that your forefoot contacts the ground, then pull the leg back up to the starting position to complete one rep. Perform in sets of 10 on each leg, gradually increasing the speed of the drive;
  • Leg cycling. Assume the same starting position as for the exercise above, but this time, on driving the leg back, sweep it back up and behind you before pulling it back from the hip to the starting position. Try to keep the foot dorsi-flexed – ie stretched towards the leg. Perform this exercise slowly at first, gradually building up speed as you become more confident.

A final thought is – don’t wear shoes! No, I’m not recommending that you complete your next lactate stacker session in your socks; but, if weather permits (or you’re training indoors), performing the drills described above over very short distances without shoes can be very beneficial. Running shoes prevent the calf and achilles tendons, in particular, from optimally flexing. They also reduce the potential to specifically strengthen these areas. Increasing foot and lower leg strength can make you a more efficient runner.

Why adopt a different approach?

Here, then, in summary is why adopting a different approach to warming up could improve your sports performance:

  1. You’ll save time and free up more specific training hours. If you were training five times a week for 250 days a year, warming up and stretching in the traditional manner for 30 minutes at a time would take up a total of 125 hours. That is virtually five days of continuous training time that could be put to much more specific use;
  2. The time spent specifically warming up will also improve your running action and specifically strengthen and stretch your running muscles, so boosting your performance. The lower leg is fundamental to running performance, and many of the drills described opposite will strengthen this region and so, in turn, do wonders for your power generation and force return;
  3. You’ll be better prepared mentally. A slow warm-up with a sustained period of stretching can switch your mind away from the dynamics of the task ahead. This may be particularly detrimental before a race or competition, when you’ll want to maintain your focus and stay sharp. On a subtler level, your neuromuscular system may not be optimally prepared if you pursue a slower style of warm-up with lots of stretching. The more focused approach will heighten the ability of your muscles to contract;
  4. Over-stretching your connective tissue can impair running efficiency and dynamic sports performance. If a runner becomes too flexible, perhaps in the hip and upper thigh region, energy can be wasted through inefficient leg drive and knee pick-up. And these negative effects become more pronounced the faster you run;
  5. Other research has indicated that the shine is knocked off dynamic activity by too much preparatory passive stretching in the warm-up. Runners’ legs need to be ‘hard’, energy-efficient, force-returning appliances, not spongy, over-absorbent ones. Too much stretching and too great a range of movement can be a bad thing. Recent research indicates that plyometric training for distance runners will develop this energy-efficiency, but so, too, will a more specific warm-up;
  6. Hyper-mobile joints can also make you more injury prone, particularly in impact sports.

Having said all this, there are times when ‘old school’ stretching is okay.

Despite the marginalisation of stretching in the new dynamic warm-up, active, passive and PNF (proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation) stretching still have a very important role to play in an overall training plan. If you recognise that limitations in your current range of movement are hampering the performance of your sport, you can use these methods to develop the range of movement you require. You should do this periodically, in any case, to reduce muscle shortening and the potential build-up of muscle tightness. Note, however, that this is best done in separate sessions, away from your sport-specific workouts.

John Shepherd

warm up exercises


 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach Mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 9:15am

Peter---excellent info.

Myles...we have used this form of warm up since the late 1970's with only one mis-hap.  I 'll show dumb bells but you can use a bar...Kettlebells ect.

Dumbbell Upright Row  Complex 1

 

 Complex 2

 

Dumbbell High Pull Snatch

Dumbbell Squat Push Press

Dumbbell Bent Over Row

Dumbbell High Pull Snatch

 

 

We had two national class throwers come into train and they mistakenly did 5-sets of 5 on this ( its only one set of 5) as they heard me say the World Record is 275-lbs for this sequence of exercises . 

 

The guy said (dripping wet with persperation)

"If this is the WARM UP...I won't be able to do the workout"....LOL

Have a GREAT Day !
Rob " Coach Mac " Mac Kay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 9:52am
Peter - I've always warmed up in stages like the post above. I static stretch ALL game day and between every throw , but always go do some speed movements(usually a drill) just after to get things "snappy". What krazy40 might mean is that if you're "overly stretched" rather than " overly flexible" .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazy40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/07 at 10:01am

Peter,

    I wasn't talking about streching before working out, haha, Lord knows if my coach would have let me walk in and throw, jump, run, whatever sport i was doing at the time, I would have been a happy camper. I hate "warm-ups". That "only be as flexible as you need to be" is something I heard at a John Powell camp, so I used it in my complaints about streching, haha. 

Lil side note:  I read somewhere the military did a test on warming up. They found that it did not help prevent injuries, but soildiers that didn't do a regular warm up were more sore (sorer? sorry not an english major) and it lasted a longer period of time.  I'm sure this has since been proven wrong, but oh well, the coach bought it, haha.

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