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Nathan Parker
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 4:37pm |
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Good points made here for sure. It is hard to argue with Dan and Jake given resumes.
That said, for every person who says deadlifting isn't as important, I can find someone else who swears by it. Usually the non deadlifters out weigh me by 40-50lbs and have some sort of strength background. I didn't come directly from a college sport, or powerlifting, or strongman. I don't have a base of strength that comes with this. I came from the couch that I sat on for about 10 years where I was a skinny/fat and weak 200lbs. Have I made mistakes in season as it regards to training? Yup, and admittedly so. With the help of others, I think I have a solid plan in place. Not deadlifting I think would be a mistake for me. I started this thread looking for an option to continue this, and found it. Below you will find a pitcher of a raccoon...
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Sport Kilt
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jsully
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Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 4:46pm |
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I don't have a problem with deadlifts, srs. They're my favorite lift. But if they hurt and you can achieve the same results without them then why not?
Maybe get a hold of MattyIce (Doherty) and talk to him about what he does. You two have a similar build.
I've been told you have a Decathlon background with a 7ft high jump. Don't play me son. Once a twitchy bastard always a twitchy bastard. Also, I see your raccoon and raise you a wombat..
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Nathan Parker
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Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 4:50pm |
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LAWL! Twitchy bastard!!
That track stuff was forever ago. BTW my shot PR in college was 43' lol. could sling a javelin like a mofo though. |
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Sport Kilt
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mike landrich
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 5:10pm |
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Instead of hex bar DL, have you ever done farmers walk deadlifts? Get a set with a low pick. I like FW picks and hate hex bar DLs.
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"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and win by experience"-Mark Twain
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jsully
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Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 5:52pm |
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Suitcase deadlifts. These are legit btw, lots of core involvement. Will build your grip too... or you and hook grip |
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TheJeff696
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 7:39pm |
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I think this is what you wanted ![]() I'm the worst
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Jeff Kaste
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Nathan Parker
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Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 9:19pm |
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Hate
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Sport Kilt
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phatmiked
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Posted: 10/02/14 at 10:13pm |
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fwiw, at a clinic once upon a time, Ryan Vierra said that if there was just one lift you should to for the HG, it would be hex bar power shrugs.
he was pretty good. said it was a staple. of course, he was doing power shrugs with 600+, fwiu. |
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rob meulenberg
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 7:48am |
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Dickens' post makes me want to state the obvious here, and I don't think I'll sound too dickish by saying it (as Nate already did).
Dan, Jake - awesome throwers and are stating less pulling Craig, Ryan Stewart, Matso - awesome throwers who like to pull Vierra - awesome thrower who says to do hex bar power shrugs. I am sure I could keep going on. But...what do ALL of these guys have in common...they are strong as hell. Dan doesn't deadlift, but I would guarantee you he can pull a good amount of weight. Sully, Craig, Stew...we have all seen their vids. They are big pullers. Strong dudes. I would argue at some point...NOT deadlifting (for instance) won't hurt you in the Games if you have a good deadlift. But if you lack some of those years "in the trenches" that Nate mentioned, doing those heavy compound lifts will help you much more. Taking myself for example...I got Dan's book in Pleasanton. I have read it cover to cover many times. Great book. He has interesting training methodologies. I have even considered trying out some of them out as I felt that deadlifting, at times, wears me down more than helps me. But I also pull over 700#. How much do you really need to deadlift for it to make you a better thrower? I believe I can personally throw far without deadlifting because I am already a good deadlifter. But it doesn't mean or suggest that deadlifting is not important to throw far.
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Sean
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 8:09am |
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Rob, that's actually been backed up by a lot of throws coaches over the years and I know I talked to Doherty years ago about the "progression" of the training. I think we were speaking shot at the time but it was something to the tune of (and don't quote me here): "First you need to squat X, then you should get your bench up to Y, finally your power clean needs to be Z. Once you hit those numbers, in that order, you never need to do it again." It was probably a Bonderchuk thing.
But what you're saying is the same thing. Yeah, you might not need to pull 8 bills to throw, but once you've been in the trenches long enough to do it once, you've probably put in your work there and can train the lift differently from then on out. |
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C. Smith
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 9:09am |
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+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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Ryan Stewart
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 12:55pm |
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Good stuff. Many ways to skin a cat in this sport. I don't have any track background so I need to do what works for me. And for me dead is king. I love deadlifting and can't imagine not doing it. I feel my dead when I throw WOB, caber, sheaf and weights. Especially weights. I know, sounds weird. I talked with Andy Vincent about this last year. He doesn't feel deads in anything. I throw weights with a scoop. If you are a scoop guy on the weights, deads will make you throw big IMO. Look at KO videos. Big scoop coming from a big dead lifter. I have a trap bar.. With lots of dust. If it feels like a squat, you should just squat and do low back accessories that don't hurt. Hope this helps.
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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Sean
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 1:22pm |
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Ryan, I'm curious though: are you a volume guy on deads or a heavy singles guy?
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Ryan Stewart
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 1:39pm |
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Three and ones. Rep stuff is just stupid to me on deads. Your asking for injury. I did do one set of 8 last year. But it was just for fun with a weight that is easy for me.
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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Daniel McKim
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 1:57pm |
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I did about three weeks of deads once, back in 2005 or 2006. I worked up to a heavy single at 500 ... with straps ... convulsing and blacking out as I pulled it. So, while I wish I had a big dead at one time or that I could pull a lot now, I know I can't. I also have the grip strength of a little girl. But, I get what you're saying and appreciate the compliment. ![]() |
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C. Smith
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 2:14pm |
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Yea, but how strong was everything else in 2005, and much did the Dan of 2005 weigh?
I'd be shocked if you couldn't pull 600 or better right now. |
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Daniel McKim
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 2:31pm |
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I was lighter, probably 265 or 270, but came out of college with a 400+ clean, big bench and sick biceps ... okay, not the last part, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.
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C. Smith
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 2:35pm |
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I can say for certain that you finally achieved the last part.
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Sean
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 2:37pm |
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I've seen how Dan does his cleans. I know where the biceps came from
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Daniel McKim
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 2:42pm |
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![]() Great discussion! Nate, good topic ... I'm sure you meant it to morph into this!
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Nathan Parker
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Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 3:34pm |
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I've enjoyed this thread from top to bottom. People that say squat more, what does that actually mean? Twice a week? more sets? more weight? I've been running 5x5 as my first lift of the week. |
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Sport Kilt
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JustinBlatnik
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Posted: 10/03/14 at 5:24pm |
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try staying under 70% of your 1RM when training for deadlift. From my research project in my masters, we found that peak bar power (which is what someone like a thower concerned with moving an external object) was found at 50% 1RM, and bar peak power was still not significantly different until 80% (70% still good). System peak power (that is your body + the bar) was found at 70% 1RM and wasn't significantly different at 80%...basically, in a laymans sense - you are able to maintain bar and system "speeds" until around 70%. Now it differs from person to person, but you could try it out. Think sub-max/dynamic effort. Could wave 3 weeks something like 50/60/70% for multiple singles each week. Could be "light enough" to keep the back pain down yet heavy enough and fast enough to get jacked bro.
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Sean
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Posted: 10/04/14 at 5:57pm |
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Justin, you realize the Russians had all that research done decades ago.
That's why Craig and a lot of other guys keep shouting out "Sub-maximal". Your money range for strength is 70-85%. Speed work is traditionally done around 50-60% of a maximal lift. Westside's been doing that for years. Like you said, there's deviance from athlete to athlete but those ranges are golden. Everyone needs to find their own exercises and groove but taken in a large enough group, the patterns emerge. Great thread, Nate! |
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C. Smith
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Posted: 10/04/14 at 6:15pm |
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Maybe he didn't trust all the previous research on the subject, Sean.
![]() I mean, it is the Russians... ![]() |
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CHAD
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Posted: 10/08/14 at 5:39pm |
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I like the trap bar lots. But I like going heavy all of the time. I need the variety. I like to rotate front squats/trapbar dl/back squats/top-down DL's as my weekly main lift. But, then again, I'm a poorly shaved ape, and notsomuch a thrower. Nothing wrecks me like reps in the real lifts (squats/deads/cleans/snatches/anything overhead). A downside to the trap bar is running out of space on the bar. So, you gotta have 100's handy or be willing to stack dumbells onto the bar like a moron.
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...Josh
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brandell
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Posted: 10/19/14 at 7:53am |
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Trap bar FTW
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Sean
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Posted: 10/19/14 at 9:06am |
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Honestly, nothing wrecks everyone like volume reps in the real lifts. It's only a question of when. Which is usually a function of "How many of the above are you doing all at once at volume?" |
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brandell
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Posted: 2/11/15 at 2:21pm |
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BTW I have been doing Sean's reverse plank, and it has helped my back.
Also, I think many try to look for "the Way" from others when the way is within yourself. What can you and what will you do. Everyone is different in how they are built, quick twitch, slow twitch, levers, height, weight, injuries etc. The Deadlift question has been one that has been around for a long time. You look at some of the top WOB guys and they deadlift, then you look at other top guys like when Matt S. hit 18' on a knock off bar and he didn't pull from the floor. Several guys throwing 16' + don't pull from the floor. I don't think there is an answer in the gym per say, to be a great thrower...throw.
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