The link is to any article on Riptoe's site.  He asks if we are neglecting strength.  What are you thoughts?

 

 

 

So this brings Glenn to where his training is now. We do the lifts and variations (blocks, hang, pauses, no hook no feet, etc) but we keep reinforcing the technique of the actual lifts and get stronger at the lifts. I am not saying Rip is completely wrong, he is quite smart and knowledgeable in most respects but to say we don't train the olympic lifts to get strong is a little bit of a stretch in my opinion. Sorry for the lengthy post, but this kind of irked me.

   

 

Bigger engine = more horses.

 

I'm not the best technician on this place by any stretch of the imagination, but there are lots of guys who aren't BETTER than me that are sure throwing a lot further. And all of them are way stronger.

 

I doubt it's coincidence.

(although I know the Rip vs. USA o-lifting war has been waging awhile now).

Isn't it possible that it's more of just looking at the US lifters and saying, "You know, they should be stronger."?  I don't think that in itself, esp if you are going to meets and seeing people there not being able to stand up with their snatch or cleans, is such a touchy topic.  Who could really argue in those instances that some additional strength would be or is a bad thing?  

I realize then, as stated, you get into a question of efficiency in the lifts, etc... but I'm not arguing that.  I'm still of the mindset that superfluous strength is NEVER a bad thing, which is what it seems like both what Rip is saying, and Glenn, you are also saying.  It just appears that the disagreement is more on how to get there.   

At the risk of weighing in ahead of someone of Glenn's knowledge and experience, I would respond in the following manner (and I am sure Glenn will correct, clarify, or expand as he feels necessary).  

When we were talking about strength, we were specifically talking about improving "Limit Strength" in the "Slow Lifts" (like clean deadlifts, front and back squats, overhead press, etc.).  I believe that is what you are still referring to above.  However, the problem is that strength in a lift like a max C&J or full Snatch is a very complex thing, and leaving pure lifting technique aside (which is likely impossible at max efforts), the very specific adaptations that result from a training program of something like Clean Deads, Squats, Shrugs, and Overhead Presses is very different than the specific adaptations that result from a program consisting of the two competitive lifts, their power variations, and Front and Back Squats, plus perhaps some very limited accessory work (back extensions etc, ab work, possibly push presses, etc). 

I believe it has been pretty clearly established now that this is more or less the way elite Olympic lifters need to train.  The reason is that, specific individual weaknesses aside (which should become increasingly limited as one becomes progressively more experienced and advanced), this is the most effective way to get stronger in the competitive lifts themselves, that is, it has the most "transfer" to performance in the competitive lifts.  Even a C&J with 85% of one's max will feel very different than a max single, and the very specific technique, or at least the very specific ways in which one's muscles work to accomplish this will be different to some extent.  Something like deadlifts are much less specific, and most have found they don't really need to do them, because you get strong enough in that way performing the first pull of the Clean, and being much stronger does not add a lot if the next link in the chain is not developed to the same extent.  Squats are a bit different, because, as you noted, it is possible for some people to clean more than they can stand up with. They obviously do increase one's general strength as well, and in a manner that takes much less time to recover from than heavy deadlifts.  

The bottom line is that despite the incredibly competitive nature of elite Olympic lifting, literally NO elite lifters from ANY country train in the way that you (or Louie Simmons) are advocating.  You have the pure Bulgarian system and it's somewhat less arduous variations, and the Russian and especially the Chinese systems that have a bit more variety, but they all have an enormous focus on the two competitve lifts, their power variations, and squats.  I can only assume because it has been determined over the past 40 years or so that something along those lines is the best way to improve one's Olympic lifting performance.  Fire away, one and all!

Absolutely, and I never suggested otherwise!  The problem is specically HOW one develops this strength, or rather training in a way that ensures it translates into a higher competitive total.  

You (or perhaps someone else) brought up the issue of Benni's deadlifting abilities.  So the guy does a perfect, smooth, raw deadlift with 1015 pounds and looks good for more.  How much do you think he can full clean, or perhaps power clean?  I have no idea, but I would bet a lot it is nowhere close to what the top few Superheavy Oly lifters could do, even in absolute terms and certainly not as a percentage of his deadlift.  Same with jerking.  A while back a few guys in the Oly lifting community were wondering if any of the top powerlifters or Strongman could even support the weight of a top-class jerk in that position, much less jerk it from a rack.  I do not know the answer to that, but the question is illustrative of the significance of specificity in training.

Or take Shane Hamman, who despite being one of the very best squatters ever, and dedicating several years to serious Olympic lifting training, ended up placing 7th in the Olympics. This was obviously a very impressive accomplishment, but on your view, one might have expected him to do even better given his superior strength in a very relevant lift.

I suspect the simplier answer to the woes of USAW is simply (Shane Hamman aside), that they do not get the best athletes the USA has to offer and the athletes they do have are generally not supported in the way some European athletes are (and especially were).  At the top level, genetics are SO important. This is an old observation, but I supect it has a lot of merit.

 

At the top levels of ANYTHING, the technique differential doesn't add up to nearly the gap the strength does.

 

The rubber hits the road the strongest, most explosive guy wins.

Glenn,

I don't think any of us commenting on this thread missed the point of the article, we just moved past it directly to your second point, i.e. given that Olympic lifters obviously need to be strong and are clearly interested in increasing their strength, what is the best WAY for them to get stronger in a way that transfers to increases in the two competitive lifts?  

Furthermore, can an Olympic lifter really be TOO strong in lifts like deadlifts, squats, or overhead presses relative to their performance in the competitive lifts? 

Finally, what are the implications of developing basic strength levels well beyond what is generally considered necessary to achieve a certain snatch or C&J?

Your post above was helpful, but I am curious how you would answer these specific questions.  I believe you have given your opinion about the first question in the basic training outline included above.  The only question would be what the rough breakdown of "pulling on bars" is in terms of the full lifts, power variations, lifting off boxes, and pulls or deadlifts. And how often do you have your lifters perform back squats as opposed to front squats (and maybe why)?

Many thanks.

Peter

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response.  Two more follow-up questions, if I may.

First, why do you train back squats more than front squats?  

Second, when squatting, how many times per week are your lifters really pushing the squats hard?  Not necessarily "grinding",  or going to max for a given number of reps, but close to it?  Are most of the squats done for reps between 1 and 3, and do you feel this allows your lifters to squat more frequently?  When squatting, how often do they perform reps of 5 or so vs. singles and doubles?

This whole issue of more frequent vs. less frequent training, particularly when it comes to squatting (since performing singles on the quick lifts is quite different), is a subject that is very interesting and/or confusing to many lifters.

Again, many thanks.

Forgive me, but I have one more follow-up question.  For the vast majority of us who do not include full cleans or squat snatches in our training, what is your opinion on the relative value of front squats vs. Olympic-style back squats, and how would you likely program each one for someone who is only squatting two or possibly three times a week in total?

Again, many thanks!

I agree with you, sir.  For throwing, I've seen my best gains when I focused more on back squats than front squats.  I wish I would have flipped the importance years ago, but I spent years doing only fronts.  

As a side note, thanks for posting here.  Your insight and expertise on the Olympic lifts is incredibly valuable to those of us who include them (or variations) in our workouts.  Thanks, sir.  

Glenn,

How do you know Sammy Walker?  One of my early "training partners", Jack Harkness (a discus thrower who attended Clemson, and was about 6-7 years older than me), was really taught how to do the Olympic lifts by Sammy.  One of my other early "training partners", Rob Gray (former Commonwealth record holder in the discus), trained with Sammy for a while when he attended SMU in the late 1970s.  I have never met Sammy myself.

BTW, could you explain WHY you believe back squats are so much better for athletes than front squats? Although we literally always did back squats "back in the day", and certainly most throwers do them extensively, over the past few years I have come to feel front squats are a more "athletic" movement that might (or might not) transfer to at least some of the throwing events better.  They also certainly stress the low back less.  I am not saying one should abandon back squats, particularly for those who include half-squats on occasion, just that perhaps there should be a balance between the two.  Thoughts?