I'm doing it wrong
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Forum Name: Training
Forum Discription: This forum is for discussion about training for the Scottish Heavy Events.
URL: http://www.nasgaweb.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15993
Printed Date: 3/26/26 at 7:10pm
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Topic: I'm doing it wrong
Posted By: thegnome
Subject: I'm doing it wrong
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 7:21am
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...so I need your help. I have been trying more and more to develop power or I guess speed strength. Something I am lacking in. I thought doing lots of cleans, snatches, jerks and Push Presses would help. However it seems I am simply doing lots of singles and doubles in the 90 - 100% range. All it seems to be doing is getting me injured. So anybody have any thoughts about rep ranges, intensity ranges, even better movements? In general I try to break my workouts into three parts a strength move, a power move (the part I am screwing up) and a conditioning portion (usually a medely or crossfitty kind of thing). Thanks for any help. ------------- Andrew G Vada a bordo CAZZO!!!! |
Replies:
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 7:32am
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Personally my feeling is unless you have access to coaching, stick with pulls. IE don't catch anything. We're throwers. We don't need the catch, we need the explosive extension.
Second, intensity-wise for speed, 70-85% is your wheelhouse. Anything above 90% should make up a whopping 10% of your total volume for the lift in a month. (YMMV, I don't feel like debating it to the pedantic out there. It's in Prilepins table and it's been a decent guideline for me personally).
Rep schemes is kind of up to you, but I'd stick to triples or less for explosive work. After that, form breakdowns prevent you doing what you're supposed to be doing.
Organizationally, start with power, move to strength, toss in some auxilary, finish with conditioning (although ask yourself what you're conditioning yourself for).
Perform everything, even your strength stuff, with controlled explosiveness. Don't grind. Grinding builds nothing conducive to your goals as a thrower.
Finally and most importantly: DO NO HARM. Pick exercises that give you the biggest bang for the buck, not necessarily what everyone else is doing. Pick the weights that allow you to get stronger, not tear you apart. And do the things that make you move better. Smooth is fast and uninjured is powerful.
If you want to get into more specifics and the like, drop me a PM and we can yatter.
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Posted By: PaulEvans
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 8:12am
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Singles and Doubles 90-100% is pretty much just testing strength. Like Sean said, spend more time building strength and a solid foundation in the 70-85%-ish area. Speed/Power work is typically 60-75% and you can do anywhere from 1-3 reps for 6-12 sets. I think the full olympic movements are awesome, but I've recently switched to just pulls (mostly because I bent my bar) and one benefit I've found is that I can get more into a throwing mindset and think more about how the pull trasfers to a throw, rather than worry about every detail of the catch and recovery.
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Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 11:49am
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One man's opinion: Doing cleans and snatches at a high enough intensity to boost your speed-strength takes work most of would be better served investing in throws/drills/hill sprints/etc. Plus they bang on the body. Also, to improve, you need to be, ahem, improving. Barring a Tendo unit, or something similar, the only way you can demonstrate improvement, measureably, is increased weight. And max work all the time isn't a good idea for most folks (don't look at my log, I'm kind of an idiot). So, what to do? Sroka and I came up with a setup a coupla years back. As I recall it was something like: Out of/pre-season: Week 1 Day 1 - Max/Heavy Squat or DL varient Day 2 - Max/Heavy Press varient Week 2 Day 1 - Speed Squat with bands and Speed RDL with bands Day 2 - Speed Push Press ---Tom, help me out on percentages here, if you would. In-season: Non-games weeks Day 1 - Max/Heavy Squat or DL varient Day 2 - Max/Heavy Press varient Games weeks or weeks that the body is worn down: Day 1 - Speed Squat with bands and Speed RDL with bands Day 2 - Speed Push Press Oh? And 2 days a week? Yeah. I try to not approach lifting like it's a dare. Also, while I'm at it, the "be a thrower that lifts, not a lifter than throws" is about the silliest thing there is. The guys selling that BS are always damn good lifters. And even if they're only good at one lift, it's freaky-good.
------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 11:59am
Thank you. ------------- ...Josh |
Sean wrote:Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 12:03pm
So true! Every time I hear this I'm like "coming from the dude who can squat 5 bills like a boss, pulls 6 for reps and OHP over 3 plates. Now I may be embellishing a little here, but sitting where I am from my throwing "seat" where I feel my form and technique is what has gotten me as far as I have have come in this sport, I always think about how much better I'd be if I were as gifted as everyone else. I'm not whining, but Josh is right, gotta get strong to throw far and throwing 3 days a week is not going to give you a 500# squat. ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: Krazy40
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 2:12pm
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Chad and Jeff,
Strong is a relative term. Who are you comparing it too? Valenti posted a couple years ago what he thought “strong enough to throw far” was and your “squat 5 bills like a boss, pulls 6 for reps, and OHP over 3 plates” may just brush the bottom of his minimum(I think it was 650 squat, 650 DL, 450 bench, but I have slept since then). Ask “normal” folk, and you belong on WSM. Lift like a thrower means to move whatever weight you pick up as fast as possible. Don’t grind out heavy, slow lifts. Doesn't sound silly at all when the object is to pick up an implement and get it moving as fast as possible before you let it go. ------------- Jeremy Gillingham "Go Big or Go Home" Sponsors: http://www.stoutbarbell.com/Home_Page.html http://www.backinact.com/newpatients.htm |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 2:14pm
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Strong means durable. The heavier you can lift (or throw), often, the more durable you are. The gym isn't going to make you into an athlete. But it may make you strong. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 3:17pm
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I agree with you Jeremy. For normal folk, I and I would wager to say most all of us here on NASGA are very strong people. But what I'm saying is if I never squatted a pound over 415 (my current pr) and moved lighter weights as fast as possible (along with good strength cycling and so on) would my stone, for instance, ever be 55+ feet? I'm hovering at 50' and I feel like I currently lift like a thrower (I'm certainly no epic lifter) and I want that 55 feet. Is it all technique? 5 feet cannot be ALL technique. Just my opinion, and just what I was trying to say. One by one, peoples threads continue to be hijacked haha ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 4:27pm
you want to argue technique? I've never thrown disc, shot or hammer competitively like 3/4 of the HG athletes on here.
outside of bench, my lifts far exeed yours (no disrespect) yet your ostone is right on par with mine and you can braemar better than me.
Josh speaking of strength as durability is right on the money imo. Josh's template is solid btw. I've never seen him post it before but I've done that before myself. It's the perfect amount of heavy work with a "deload" every other week. I like to work up to a 3rm, 2rm or 1rm on heavy days and for my speed work I stick with 40-50% of my max and hit triples (bench), doubles (squat) or singles (deadlift) for 8-12 sets. There are lots of successful throwers that don't do the O-lifts so I'm not convinced they're required. Just my thoughts. |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 4:38pm
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I'm also a half giant which plays a "big" role...get it? in my throws. You should give shot/disc in a meet a try sometime, Jake. You'd surprise yourself. From what you looked like gliding  to what you've work up to in your spin, you should be an uber proud papa. I tried spinning for half a season of track, fouled out once, never looked back. You are braver than I. No more hijacking from me!! ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: rob meulenberg
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 7:56pm
Looks like I may try this in the future, too. Don Clark came by the gym this past weekend to check it out. I think he and his roommate will join up once UMaine track season ends. At the very least, I have someone to throw with, and he said I could come out and throw in some shot meets. That will be ugly. ------------- www.sportkilt.com |
Posted By: Srokus
Date Posted: 3/19/13 at 9:39pm
That's pretty much it, the only thing you forgot was during the off season there was a third day which was pretty much a rep day. Nothing crazy, just go in and get the blood flowing. On the dynamic days during the in season I kept the percentages between 55-65%. That was when I was throwing my best so it worked for me. ------------- The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times... www.thestrengthagenda.com |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 6:05am
DO IT! You wont feel bad if you do horribly because it's track, not HGames. At least, that's my reasoning for when I suck haha. Don is a beast, and will probably end up being another Mainer powerhouse in HGames once he gets a few games under his belt. Make sure you put him in his place when you destroy him in epic Silo lifting awesomeness. ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 8:13am
That's where we put the dumbbell pressing, rows, rehab stuff, correct? No big lifts. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 10:07am
I strongly agree with most of this, with just a couple of caveats. IF you can catch a weight without hurting yourself in any way, I think catching results in a better lift. But it is not essential and that might not be true for you. Also, in terms of percentages, the particular lift makes a BIG difference in my experience. If you are doing Hang Snatches to straight legs, or even Power Cleans to straight legs, you can use a much higher percentage of your max safely and regularly than you can with squats or deadlifts. The former lifts tend to be very "go or no go" and as long as you use good form they tend to be quite "easy", which is never true of a near max squat or deadlift. Keep in mind that when calculating percentages, you have to work off lifts performed to the same height or depth, which is something I think a lot of people tend to ignore. The weight you can catch in a half squat will be significantly different than the weight you can catch on straight legs and you need to use the latter number if that is what you are doing. With respect to your question about strength I would have two comments. First, yes you can obviously get stronger and yes that would obviously help you throw farther. However, given how tall you are the weights you lift will always be lower than someone who is 6' tall throwing the same distances as you (all else being equal, of course). Limb length (and height generally) is hugely relevant, in a good way for throwing and a "negative" way for lifting (because you have to move the bar farther). So get stronger, but do not compare your lifting numbers to guys who are much shorter than you. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 11:33am
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1. Dude, over-use injuries and general wear and tear, crop up over time. Not "hurting yourself in any way" is too hard to measure when days stretch into months then years. 2. I completely agree. The general rule I made for myself for speed training is: the closer the lift is a test of max strength the higher the percentage used. Then you have to factor in bands, and it gets complicated. For speed work for me: snatches at 90% x 10 x 1. For cleans I like 82-85 x 10 x 1. I like 60-70% for deadlifts x 6->8 x 1, and box squats with bands 50-60% x 8 x 2. Speed work on pressing tears me up. It's different for everyone, and everyone's program shuld be different. 3. Limb length? There are just too many outliers here. Increased limb length is a help not a hindrance with respect to throwing, and many long limbed folks are damn strong on any scale. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 12:56pm
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Josh, Just with respect to your third point, I am not sure why or even if you are disagreeing with me. I explicitly stated that longer limbs are good for throwing (all else being equal, of course). And I never suggested taller, longer limbed guys could not be extremely strong (I assume most modern NFL linemen would qualify, as well as a number of Olympic shot putters and discus throwers and many of the guys in the WSM). I merely suggested that, everything else being equal, a taller, longer-limbed guy is not going to have to be as strong as a significantly shorter guy to throw the same distances. Similarly, just to be clear, I never said "shorter" guys could not throw very far (Ryan V and Matso are two obvious examples), just that, everything else being equal, they are going to have to be stronger than a significantly taller thrower. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 1:11pm
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My point is "all else being equal" doesn't exit. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 1:44pm
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Josh, Of course you are right, but that is the only way you can talk about these things. Remember the context, which was Jeff's original question/statement about his strength relative to others or what others think you need to throw far. Technique is such a huge factor that you have to "equalize" that in order to talk about these things. The same is true in some ways with explosiveness. Otherwise Feuerbach's WR in the shot makes no sense, or even Ulf Timmermann's. The other way of looking at the issue is this: http://www.nacactfca.org/Web%20files%20from%20PR/Babbitt%20-%20Revolutions%20in%20Training%20for%20the%20Throwing%20Events.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.nacactfca.org/Web%20files%20from%20PR/Babbitt%20-%20Revolutions%20in%20Training%20for%20the%20Throwing%20Events.pdf http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2010/Don-Babbitt_Power-Training-For-Sport.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2010/Don-Babbitt_Power-Training-For-Sport.pdf ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 2:05pm
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Nope. The only way to talk about this is to test and see what works and what doesn't. For the individual. Strength standards only make any sense at all in very limited contexts. Accepting that things are the same, when they aren't, and never can be, leads only to stagnation. Yes, Feuerbach and Timmerman had their techniques. Sure. But they had otherworldly strength-to-weight ratios. Trying to duplicate either technique is a flawed strategy. Testing aspects of each and seeing if they work for you, or anyone, is the way to go. Strength is the same way. What works for you is what works for you. There's no such thing as a more athletic training program. The measurable results of any program are the only yardsticks to its efficacy. Taken out of throwing...I knew a guy, a former UFC champ. His training was set up like it was taken straight from Muscle and Fitness June 1991. Then he'd do a few kettlebell whatsits, then box against athletic bands. Did it work for him? Yup. Did it work for the 30+ other guys who tried to mimic him? Nope. Not at all, in fact. Total disaster. Everything needs to customized to the individual. I don't try to get anyone to train like me, or anyone else. You still need to explain to me how box jumps and lifting to virtually straight legs makes sense in terms of measurable improvement and injury prevention. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 2:18pm
I love that issue!
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Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 2:29pm
i'm the opposite. 40-50% squats + bands beat me to shreds. I feel crushed after a speed squat and pull session.
Speed presses on the other hand? I could go all day. Maybe because I'm not a very good presser? I dunno. But I feel the impact of lower body speed work much moreso than upper.
Just demonstrating your last sentence there.
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Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 2:46pm
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Jakenz, I figure the why's are are less important than if they work without banging you up. This is why careful logging helps. You see the trends if you go back and analyze your own meatheadery. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: stormer
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 2:54pm
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Why not concentrate at getting all the power positions with all the events and drill throw lots on the back of some solid weight room numbers. You don't need to squat 600 bench over 400 etc to throw far, I know throwers who've thrown very far with average strength 320 bench 400 squat but great agility and technique.. Talking mid 50s in stone well over 135 in the hammer over 80 in the weight.. Good luck. |
Posted By: Srokus
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 3:14pm
that is correct. ------------- The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times... www.thestrengthagenda.com |
Posted By: Srokus
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 3:18pm
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By the way, I get a sick pump from box jumps and kb swings, women love how my posterior looks after the fact. ------------- The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times... www.thestrengthagenda.com |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 3:57pm
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Tom, ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 4:10pm
I am not sure what to say about this. When I can lift heavier weights onto virtually straight legs and jump onto higher boxes in a given manner, I have measurable improvement. I am not sure either has anything to do with "injury prevention" in the usual sense of that phrase, but neither of these movements hurt me at all, and I am quite sure that is true in a long-term sense as well (I am almost 47 by the way). As long as I do not have to "work" or get myself out of position in any way (this is where people get into trouble in my opinion), catching the bar is very easy and natural for me. And landing on a box is absolutely stress-free for me, with negligible landing forces. I either step down or even use smaller boxes when jumping on high boxes at this point, although I could easily bounce up and down on an 18" or 24" box. With respect to the rest of your post, I largely agree with what you have written, but it is really not addressing the point I was making, which is fine.
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 4:27pm
I'm not talking theoretical improvements. I'm talking ACTUAL improvements. The weight room makes me durable. And sexy. Obviously.
I'd argue that you aren't making any progress. So risk vs. reward it doesn't make sense to do the Olifts. UNLESS you do Olifts and box jumps because you LIKE them. THAT is fine. But then say THAT. There's nothing intrinsically better about your specific training regimen.
I don't accept almost any of your basic premises, so there may be a bit of a disconnect, yes. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: thegnome
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 6:00pm
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Wow thank you guys for all the responses. I haven't had a chance to look at all of them but one said keep in mind what you are conditioning for or something similar.
The answer is three things 1) I'm 47 with kids as young as 6. Want to be around long enough to see them get old. 2) I do the occasional strongman. Conditioning comes in handy on some of the lighter events. 3) It's fun. Every now and then I like to play around on a mountain bike or hike, or XC ski (alot of late). Things like that are more fun when you don't explode 5 minutes in.
I'll hopefully be looking these all over now. Thanks again.
------------- Andrew G Vada a bordo CAZZO!!!! |
Posted By: thegnome
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 6:13pm
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Thanks again, lots of good info. As for hijacking the thread (threadjacking). Please feel free to do so. I would be dissapointed if you didn't. ------------- Andrew G Vada a bordo CAZZO!!!! |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/20/13 at 8:43pm
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Chad Smith makes some good points in this new video, and also gives a nice shout out for Matso's new book. http://youtu.be/p91Xohz7xkc" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/p91Xohz7xkc The chart (or perhaps an older version) Chad refers to in his talk can be found by searching for the following. I cannot import it here for some reason. THE PERFORMANCE STRUCTURE OF REESE HOFFA By Don Babbitt, University of Georgia ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Marius
Date Posted: 4/09/13 at 3:21pm
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Hey, Gnome. Check out Dan John and Pavel Tsatsouline's Easy Strength. There's a lot of great information on how to develop sport-specific strength without hurting yourself, especially as you get older. Dan John's forum on Dave Draper's site ( http://www.davedraper.com" rel="nofollow - www.davedraper.com ) is a good resource, too. Dan John's a champion Scottish thrower, too, so he can answer a lot of questions about this. For me...I train the quick lifts once per week, but it's extremely low volume (five sets of doubles or even less) in the power snatch and hang clean. Everything else is a push, pull, hip hinge (deadlift, KB swing, KB snatch, etc), squat, and throw. ------------- Tom |
Posted By: Loftearmen
Date Posted: 4/29/13 at 1:56pm
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I have no experience with highland games. I literally just got the idea to compete in them yesterday. However, I have won the APF Texas Cup in the super heavyweight raw division for two years running now so I definitely know my way around a weight room. If you're looking for speed training I would recommend starting with straight weights, no bands, and using 40-50% of your 1RM for your speed work. Keep in mind that the speed of the bar is what's important, not the weight lifted, so if you need to go to 30% to keep your movements explosive then that's okay. It's also okay to go as high as 70%-75% as long as you can move the bar fast. 10 sets of 2-4 repetitions is the rule of thumb for speed training. I also like to train with a dead stop on speed lifts so doing box/pause squat variations and paused or dead stop bench press/overhead press variations would be best. If you decide to use some sort of accomodated resistance, I would use chains before bands for reasons outside the scope of this post. And keep the chain weight light. You're not an equipped powerlifter so there's no need to put 200lbs of chain on a lift. I would keep chain weight at about 10% of the total weight used. I hope this helps and good luck to you. ------------- Training Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=152633253 |
Posted By: thegnome
Date Posted: 4/30/13 at 7:41am
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Thanks! and wecome to Highland Games. You're going to have a great time! ------------- Andrew G Vada a bordo CAZZO!!!! |