I am certain other people will have much more and better specific experience than me on this topic, but anyway...

- When I was throwing shot seriously as a much younger man (a very relevant consideration), we threw indoors for the entire winter, 3 to 6 times a week in addition to 3 lifting workouts.  Throwing outside during the winter (in Toronto, Canada) would have been nasty and impractical, although not technically impossible I suppose (the Russian hammer throwers do it...).

- Harry MacDonald, the former Canadian Champion, lives about two hours west of me.  Harry was HUGE and STRONG and loved lifting.  My understanding is that he used to do nothing but lift for the entire late fall, winter, and early spring period, and then gradually start cutting back on the lifting and doing more and more throwing.  He was a successful Pro who did a ton of Games each year during the late May-late September period, with limited lifting during the season.  He had a long career and attributed that partly to focussing on lifting during the winter and throwing during the summer.  Whether this was truly accurate or was just his personal belief is obviously unclear, but without indoor facilities it is certainly a pain to throw when it is below freezing, snowy, and icy.

- You also have to take into consideration several aspects of your own situation.  How much time can you devote to working out (throwing and lifting) during the off-season?  How many sessions can you handle recovery-wise?  Are you already strong enough to throw as far as you realistically want to, but lacking in other areas?  This is true for many individuals.  I have no idea if this is true for you, but if this is the case, you might want to limit your lifting to twice a week and focus on technique, jumping, etc. during your other workouts.  On the other hand, you might love lifting and appreciate a period in which you can focus on your lifting workouts with worrying about how they are going to affect your throwing.  Perhaps if you throw a lot during the season you might enjoy the break from throwing, especially if it is nasty/inconvenient to do so during the winter.

- I would love to hear 17/20's opinion on this issue.

Thom - listen to Coool One - you already know how to throw and your body will remember on Saturday. As a master , you should do SOME off -season tossing (every coupla weeks maybe 3 @ 75% 3-4 events)- keeps you athletic and bouncy. But, Craig taught me it's more important to feel STRONG AND RESTED . And weight lifting keeps you straightened out. If all you do is twist(throw) you'll get twisted up. The offseason should be about #1= resting(getting straight/healed) ,# 2= getting in shape(GPP) ,#3= starting heavier lifting that fazes into #4=more explosive lifting mixed w. tossing, #5= to season time -  lifting enough to stay straight and tossing enough to be ready for Saturday.  I went the last 3 weeks of last season - 3 games back to back - and never tossed outside a game and only lifted once b4 weeks 1 and 2 . In the past I would have tossed 6 times at least and not lifted at all - and I had 3 great games and feel great now.Stop being a meathead and an overworker - I can say this 'cause that was me too. I won't pick up an implement 'till 2008 at least - probably not volume throwing  until March. Work light(really light) and fast 'till 2008. Rest my brother. 

This is not good, Mike is learning about over training.  Craig bro?

I am already into number 3 Mike.  Gettyup baby, daddy has a new set of knee wraps and is going to take them for a drive.

Just started # 2. Did 10 sets of 10 deep lunges this morning after yardwork ........5x10 one legged squats and 3x10 hi step ups on Tuesday. Just bodyweight and I'm sore as Hell. Getting in shape for December pullin'. 

My thoughts JWC-nothing wrong w/ being obsessed it's why you continue to improve. Welcome to the lifers club.

Effective Jan.1 a start throwing/drilling, however, I throw/drill hi-volume rhytm/tempo/sub-max throwing/drilling. What that means is I'm just throwing/ drilling at 70%. An example 20 throws w/ the 14 lb shot at 45-48'. I also stay on the lighter side, 14-16lb shots, 25/35lb wts for dst. and a variety of puds for hammer( the puds range from 25-50 lbs). No caber, sheaf or ht. Now the big question is there a carry over. I think it's helped me maintain my distances with the stone, wts for dist and hammers. Which at this point I'll take. I will throw in a "comp.day" if we get some warm weather and I can throw off hard top. I will also have a goal 500 throws in each event for a total of 1500 releases. If I'm correct you had alot PR's this year and you indicated you threw some this winter. I think you should, at a minimum increase your throwing volume this winter and conintue to make gains in the training hall. The combination can beat you down,however, so don't ignore the signs. Nothing wrong with taking 2-3 days off to resupply body energy.

Prior to Jan. (Oct-Dec) I'm focused on conditioning/resting and my on-going rehab. For the first time in several yrs. I'm close to 100%. Above all get yourself back to 100%. 

Good luck! Still looking for Mark Cameron.

17/20 wrote: I will also have a goal 500 throws in each event for a total of 1500 releases.

Wow!!!

In all of 2007 i took probably less than 40 (read: forty) throws in each event (all were in comp, btw).  Had two PR's too, which ill gladly take at this point.  There's more than one way to skin a cat i guess.

Craig I hear ya. The older and weaker I get the more I'm trying to do it by throwing volume in the off season. My back and front squat have taken a big hit since 05' (knee). Which has resulted in some tech. breakdown. The DL and G/M are still up there-so the up and over events are OK.

Craig-I'm predicting if you take a least 50 throws in each events you'll be a top 3 finisher at the Worlds. Good Luck!

I have a different approach to range throwing:

1. Warm up just like in a games (i.e. winds only for hammer).
2. Take three competition level of effort tosses.
3. Mark the furthest and call that your PR for the day.
4. Take your range throws at the appropriate percentage of your PR that day.

17/20 wrote: Craig I hear ya. The older and weaker I get the more I'm trying to do it by throwing volume in the off season. My back and front squat have taken a big hit since 05' (knee). Which has resulted in some tech. breakdown. The DL and G/M are still up there-so the up and over events are OK. Craig-I'm predicting if you take a least 50 throws in each events you'll be a top 3 finisher at the Worlds. Good Luck!

Thanks Don, at least one of us it optimistic   

If i'm lucky enough to make it to worlds next year, i will have a minimum of 6 throws in each event by then.  Close enough, right?

Wayne Hill wrote: That's like a "Bulgarian max".

Yup. Plus this approach lets you practice "games attempts" every time you practice but not so many that you burn yourself out. It is especially important in hammer where your first competition toss is your first toss.

Thanks to all,  Hey, 17/20, I found Mark Cameron and I have an AWESOME photo of him doing the 501 C&J now hanging in my gym autographed by him.  He was a real stand up guy, visited via e-mail and over the phone. 

I think my weakness is my technique, and I think I'm the type of person that needs to have a lot of reps to maintain good technique.  I seem to "forget" how to throw quickly.  So I think I need the reps, I just need to quit throwing 100% every single throw.  My strength is good, got 220lbs/100kgs 20 reps on the push press for a life time PR the other night.   I appreciate all the feedback and I think Craigs comment on the "Many ways to skin a cat" is true, but the real secret is having multiple options and finding the one that best suits you.  You guys have given me some options. Thom

This is an excerpt from an older post on The Ring containing advice from Youri Sedykh on the importance of year-round training.  Not sure about the advice regarding 8-10 reps while lifting for throwers, even done with the proper "rhythm", but who am I.  Perhaps this is rather hammer throw specific?  Maybe Steve Dering or Bert will comment.

Although I am sure a lot of HG throwers have been successful only throwing 7-8 months a year, this is clearly not the ideal.  It is certainly unheard of in T&F beyond the high school level, unless one is a multi-sport athlete in college, and non-existent at the elite level.  HG uses some heavier implements, but the throwing techniques are not any easier and in addition there are several distinct events to practice.

Having said all that, as a relatively new Master's competitor with limited to poor technique in several of the events (and inconsistant technique in the rest), I will unfortunately be throwing very, very rarely until at least April.  I just cannot both throw and lift in a meaningful way due to time constraints and facilities limitations, especially during the winter.  But it is far from ideal.  During this past summer, I did not lift at all from the middle of June until the end of the season, which was also far from ideal but that's the way it had to be.

You need to spend lots more time working the rhythm and "flow" of the whole throw more than practicing small specifics- especially in the actual throwing action.
Iouri also talked about the over importance of weight work compared to throwing. He feels that you need to throw year round- different intensities but throwing always so any other improvements (speed, power, flexibility) can be working into the technique easily. He said a thrower who trains power/lifting all fall and winter with little or no throwing "starts at zero" if throwing only in spring. He also talked about the over-importance placed on maximum lifts: he prefered a weight that he worked for 8-10 reps for a feeling of "tonus" or explosiveness.

Talk about training all year.

Additionally the Russians recommend 10,000 throws per year, which works out to be about 200+ per week. This is a lot of throwing with the hammer which is why many throws are at lower intensity, but attempting to combine this with weight lifting puts extreme load on an individual. I do not think this style of training would necessarily apply directly to the other throws events.

Yuri Sedykh

I do understand.

I threw the olympic hammer in college for Eastern Illinois University. Still in the top ten all time.Hammer

interesting discussion,

I have spoken to one world class hammer (track) coach from the USSR at length and two world class US Shot putters,and one world class East german putter,

all four had different phillosophy, marked difference DDR vs USSR, with amreicans adopting bits of both with traditional US know how. I

e DDR four basic lifts only, USSR 120 lifts over the year, all threw in the snow and cold, all did range throwing, all did a percentage of light weight implements, USSR the most, and heavy implements, DDR the most.

Two things all four of them recommended, throw all during the year, and do lots of leg work (Weights).

The throwing can be at 60% effort or with a lighter weight while every week alternating one heavy session with one competation weight session.

I remember my friend and roommate being coached and one week he did four sessions with a 4kg hammer, 1 with a five kg hammer and 1  with a 7.26 hammer to keep him fresh and make the target volume.

The next week he would do the same and he would use the 35lb weight on the heavy day and the throwing and lifting was continually changing.

He never got particularily good at any lift, nor with the light hammer or weight, but he threw about 260 with the competition hammer drug free.

Idea behind the throwing over the year was that you could make the necessary micro adjustments as you got stronger.

Plyos and drills were not big for any of them

One of the US putters had crazy strength and jumps stats, the other had modest stats but they threw within inches of each other, go figure?

The EG putter was good at his core weights and the standing throw and ok at the glide, below Parallel Squat, Hang snatch with a deep split, Behind the neck jerk , and bounce bench. He had not done a clean except a few times and had no marks for things push press, powerclean, incline bench etc.

All these guys threw, different highlanders, but I'll bet RV learned enough in his travels to  throw during the winter and lift during the summer to keep the systems and muscle memory fresh!

cheers,

leo

A bit throws fan

hope this helps

Leo

PS the strong American didnt look strong, but he had a huge squat incling bench,powerclean, and verticle jump, real american lifts, he would have handeled westside barbell club with ease,

and when I said the east germans stand was good, i meant great, it's just his glide was only four feet further!

Gentlemen,

Great info, if somewhat obfuscated for newer throwers.  In a nutshell, with a comp in March, how often, per week, would you recommend an individual throw each implement, and with what intensity?  Keep in mind this person lifts intensely 4 times a week.

I am trying to find the healthy balance; right now I am throwing/lifting on the same day...because I don't know any better.  It puts hellacious pressure on my arms and back, but that is starting to fade.

I figured if I want to throw like the best, I need to train like the best.  To do that, I needed to ask the best.

Respectfully,

Duncan McCallum

Mr. Natural wrote: Ask Roy or Borque or Sorin or Pokowski how demanding the thing is. you HAVE to do literally thousands of throws to gain proficiency in it.

Yes you do.

200 throws a week was an average week, and we were natural and therefore rediculously overtrained.  

Explains why I am retired at 33. 

***Disclaimer, I have only been throwing for a year and I just moved from B to A***

My first (and only) year of training, I throw and lift year round.  I lift 3-5 days a week and throw all events on Saturday (usually last 5- hours).

I planned on doing a lot of speed work this off season and doing some extra throws during the week (just 10-20 throws) concentrating on stone, hammer winds, and LWFD....but then I shattered my Tibia and tore up my knee so now off season will be a lot of upper body work and getting around on crutches.

I think a nice thing about the gym is it keeps you balanced.  When you do all the throws with one side of your body you become lopesided and that is just asking for injury.  Stretching and mobility work, foam rolling, etc. would certainly help too.

UpChucker wrote:  I throw and lift year round.  I lift 3-5 days a week and throw all events on Saturday (usually last 5- hours).

This is entirely too much, imo.

even for a young stud such as myself???  I did not include the mandatory running for Air Force PT...LOL

I usually take a week off from the gym before the games so I am not sore.  If all I had to worry about was HG, I would cut back on the lifting and throw more often to get the reps in and work on my form.

UpChucker wrote: even for a young stud such as myself???

Yup.  With age comes wisdom, just ask Roy.

C. Smith wrote: UpChucker wrote: even for a young stud such as myself???    Yup.  With age comes wisdom, just ask Roy.

It's true.  Listen to the elderly, except BAAB, He is not Human, I am convinced.  Made of Steel.