The traditional Power Ratio test used by European T&F athletes involved taking ones max back squat, bench press, power clean, and power snatch and dividing the total by one's bodyweight.  For Highland Games athletes, I would suggest using the results one's power clean, push press, and front squat.  Even most of you who don't do power cleans regularly or think they are not that important should be able to manage a few for the purpose of this test. 

To make results comparable, l would suggest the following "rules":

1.  Power Clean - from the floor, with straps and belt allowed.

2.  Push Press - from a rack, from the front of the body to complete lock-out, belt allowed.

3.  Front squat to just below parallel, belt and neoprene or similar knee sleeves allowed but NO tight knee wraps or lifting suits (obviously!).

Those who are interested could compete on two levels:

1. Highest Power Ratio:  e.g. 300 power clean + 250 push press + 400 front squat = 950 total/260 bodyweight=3.65 power ratio.  In this case, I am not sure what ratios would be considered average/good/etc., but certainly a ratio of 4.00 would be excellent (Craig?, Bert?, ???).

2. Highest total, without regard to bodyweight.

I would be happy to chart the results of those who wish to participate.

Coach Mac - any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.

Mark Twain

Cool.

All in the same workout?

C. Smith wrote: Cool. All in the same workout?

Ideally, yes.  Certainly all in the same week if doing them in the same workout is impossible for some reason.

I realized I should have included an additional comment.  While seeing other people's results and competing with them to some extent can be fun and motivational, the real purpose is to chart your own progress and keep improving against your own past results. 

Due to the rather different ideal body structures for lifters vs. throwers, those who are the best at this type of test won't necessarily be the best throwers (technique aside).  However, improvements in this power ratio for a given individual should indicate a greater potential for long throws (again, technique aside).

i dont like the use of a jerk in there.  i think it would skew the numbers much higher. 

While one could use jerks instead of push presses, that will obviously change the result upward.  I think we should use push presses instead because it is a less technical lift, making it more relevant/accesible to more individuals.  In addition, it is somewhat closer to the bench press used in the original test, and might (or might not) be more relevant to the Highland Games.

Your results are obviously very good though.

Mark,

Sorry, but that would completely change the test.  The deadlift is already part of the other lifting challange.  This was meant to be somewhat of a response or alternative to that.  If you don't want to catch the clean, you can pull it up to somewhere past your nipples and it should be about the same. 

What's the objection to catching a clean once in a while for the purposes of testing?  Would this most likely hurt your shoulders, or what?  I am just curious.  BTW, I am not suggesting people need to do cleans instead of high-pulls regularly in their training, but it makes testing somewhat more objective, especially without a proper height indicator, which would eliminate the problem of pulling one's body DOWN to the bar instead of pulling the bar UP to the required height.

Peter Ingleton wrote: Sorry, but that would completely change the test.  The deadlift is already part of the other lifting challange.  This was meant to be somewhat of a response or alternative to that.  If you don't want to catch the clean, you can pull it up to somewhere past your nipples and it should be about the same.

No catch, no test.  It is really common for people to be able to high pull 100+ more that their clean. 

C'mon Valenti, you can catch one.  I will too.  You should come down here and we'll test together.

Hey-

http://www.youtube.com/v/thg7R3tycRA&rel=1 - http://www.youtube.com/v/thg7R3tycRA&rel=1

PC 195 + FS 275 + PP 205 = 675

675 / BW 200 = 3.375

Age: 48.75

-K

WOW,

Just had a crack at you test and ended up with:

Pc 341lbs

Jerk 291.5Lbs

FtSq 407lbs

Body Weight 242lbs

I think it all works out at 4.3 ? ? ?

Good test especially all on the same day.

G

Graeme,

Very nice lifting, but you need to do a push press instead of the jerk, unless that was a typo.

Beau Fay wrote: Question - can we clean from the hang as opposed to from the floor if we wish?

First post in the thread wrote: 1.  Power Clean - from the floor, with straps and belt allowed.

Sheesh....everybody wants to change the rules.  Can i jerk?  Can i hang clean? etc....

Geesh Wayne-

I did em as prescribed ... and ... on video. Plus no straps, wraps or belt.

None were personal bests but its a place to start.

btw - PC/DL = 45.34%

-K

Karnak-

I'll work hard to make it happen.

I thought 45% of the DL showed more upside for the PC. With some work it should be around 50% or so, eh?

-K 

I have created a chart for posting the results of the Power Ratio Test.  These are the preliminary results.  I look forward to receiving more results over the next couple of weeks and beyond.  Posting the chart onto this site messes up some of the formatting for some reason, so this will have to do.  A chart will also be included at the top of this thread, and that is the one that will be updated.

nm, got it.

The following three percentage charts are each based off a major lift. You can use anything from a max to a ten rep set. Just be aware that it'll stay at that rep range for all the lifts and poundages given. So if you use a five rep max on the bench press chart, you'll get a five rep weight for all the lifts.

Deadlift Based

• Deadlift — 100%

• Back squat — 71.4 %

• Bench press and pull-up — 55.6 %

• Front squat and close-grip bench press — 50 %

• Hang clean — 45 %

• Dumbbell bench press (two dumbbell total) and one-arm row (two dumbbell total) — 43 %

• Push press, jerk, and dumbbell incline bench press (two dumbbell total) — 40 %

• Dumbbell overhead press (two dumbbell total) — 32.5 %

• Hammer curl (two dumbbell total) — 31.5 %

• Dumbbell curl (two dumbbell total), barbell curl, and dumbbell overhead triceps extension (one dumbbell) — 30 %

• Bulgarian squat (weighted) — 27.5 %

• Lunge (weighted), split squat (weighted), and press-down — 25 %

• E-Z bar skull crusher — 24 %

• Dumbbell skull crusher (two dumbbell total), preacher curl, and concentration curl (two dumbbell total) — 22 %

• Seated calf raise and pec fly (two dumbbell total) — 20 %

• Single-leg Romanian deadlift (one dumbbell) and standing calf raise (one dumbbell) — 13 %

Back Squat Based

• Back squat — 100 %

• Bench press and pull-up — 77.8 %

• Front squat and close-grip bench press — 70 %

• Hang clean — 63 %

• Dumbbell bench press (two dumbbell total) and one-arm row (two dumbbell total) — 60 %

• Push press, jerk, and dumbbell incline bench press (two dumbbell total) — 56 %

• Dumbbell overhead press (two dumbbell total) — 45.5 %

• Hammer curl (two dumbbell total) — 44 %

• Dumbbell curl (two dumbbell total), barbell curl, and one-dumbbell overhead triceps extension (one dumbbell) — 42 %

• Bulgarian squat (weighted) — 38.5 %

• Lunge (weighted), split squat (weighted), and press-down — 35 %

• E-Z bar skull crusher — 33.6 %

• Dumbbell skull crusher (two dumbbell total), preacher curl, and concentration curl (two dumbbell total) — 30.8 %

• Seated calf raise and pec fly (two dumbbell total) — 28 %

• Single-leg Romanian deadlift (one dumbbell) and standing calf raise (one dumbbell) — 18.2 %

• Deadlift — 140 %

Bench Press Based

• Bench press — 100 %

• Front squat and close-grip bench press — 90 %

• Hang clean — 81 %

• Dumbbell bench press (two dumbbell total) and one-arm row (two dumbbell total) — 77.3 %

• Push press, jerk, and dumbbell incline bench press (two dumbbell total) — 72 %

• Dumbbell overhead press (two dumbbell total) — 58.4 %

• Hammer curl (two dumbbell total) — 56.6 %

• Dumbbell curl (two dumbbell total), barbell curl, and dumbbell overhead triceps extension (two dumbbell total) — 54 %

• Bulgarian squat (weighted) — 49.4 %

• Lunge (weighted), split squat (weighted), and press-down — 45 %

• E-Z bar skull crusher — 43 %

• Dumbbell skull crusher (two dumbbell total), preacher curl, and concentration curl (two dumbbell total) — 39.5 %

• Seated calf raise and pec fly (two dumbbell total) — 36 %

• Single-leg Romanian deadlift (one dumbbell) and standing calf raise (one dumbbell) — 23.3 %

• Back squat — 128 %

• Deadlift — 179 %

so this might sound stupid but what is the difference between jerks and push press?  Can you not dip your legs with a push press? Is a jerk just a push press with a split? Can push press "snap" up like jerks or do they have to be ground out?

I recently started doing one or the other, but I assume that they are Jerks, even though I don't spilt because they are alot easier than I used to do them, where i didn't do any leg dip or whatever.  Also, whats the difference in how they translate into HGs? So yeah, I'm confused...

northsider,

A Push Press is basically a jerk with no split or bending of the legs at the finish.  It is inititated with a powerful leg drive exactly like a jerk and finishes exactly like a Military Press.  To complete the picture, a third type of movement is the Power Jerk, which involves bending the legs into about a quarter squat in order to catch the weight, but with no split. 

All three varieties can be done either from the front/chest or from behind the neck, like a squat.  More weight can be used from behind the neck (around 20%?) and the movement itself is a bit easier for most, as it has a better line.  However, lowering a heavy weight very quickly behind the neck can be VERY hard on your rotator cuff muscles if these happen to be weak or tight, even if you bend your knees properly when you receive the weight.  If you want to do this version, which was a staple of the East German throwers, (i) ease into them slowly and carefully, (ii) make sure you do not have any issues with your rotator cuff muscles, which is very common, especially for those over 35 or so, (iii) consider doing many sets of singles and trying to receive the bar in front instead of behind.  You can seriously injure bits of your shoulders doing this movement if you are either careless receiving the weight or have some type of shoulder issue (even latent) - trust me.

With regard to whether push presses or split jerks are more relevant for HG athletes and other throwers, there are different opinions on this.  First, split jerks are more technical than push presses, which anyone can do quite well with just a bit of practice.  The split requires some timing and speed and a bit of confidence going under the bar, as well as a strong back, shoulder girdle, and "core" in order to avoid collapsing under the heavy weights that can be put overhead in this fashion.  Assuming you know how to do split jerks properly they can be very valuable, especially later in the preparatory period.  A great deal of power is generated in this movement and in a way that is very transferable to the throws.  This is also true to a significant if lesser degree with push presses. 

The difference of opinion regarding these two lifts lies in the fact that the push press involves a simple upward explosion, much like the finish of the stone for example.  In contrast, the split jerk (and power jerk) involves dipping down under the bar, which some argue is not what happens when throwing, thereby concluding that push presses are superior.  The proponents of jerks look at the movement in a slightly different way, noting that both throwing and the jerk begin with a powerful loaded phase (the power position and the push), an "unloaded" phase (transfer of weight to the front of the throw and dive into the split), and a strong, tight finish (the block and the catch at the bottom of the split jerk).  This was also the reason split snatches were utilized extensively by the East Germans.

You should at least start off doing just push presses until you are very comfortable with them and have developed the specific upper back and shoulder strength that is required for heavy overhead lifts.  If you work out at a commercial gym with iron plates and no lifting platforms, you might want to (or might have to) stick with push presses, as you have to be prepared to miss the odd jerk, which would likely cause a commotion under those circumstances.  This is certainly not the end of the world, as many throwers just do push presses in any case, including Brian Oldfield and our own Craig Smith.  Many athletes who do jerks extensively still do push presses during the first half of the off-season or so, or do them on different days.  My understanding is that the East Germans generally moved from push presess to jerks as the training year progressed, but with a much greater emphasis on the jerk.  I know Ryan V. thinks BN Jerks are a key movement.  So you have Brian Oldfield, Craig Smith and many others who believe in the push press and the East Germans, Al Feuerbach, and Ryan Vierra who believe in jerks.  You decide!

Perhaps Kurt, Big Mac, Big Ed, Skullsplitter, Craig, Ryan V., or my fellow Canadian Greg Hadley will give their superior input on this topic.

Question Re: Finding your balance

Recently, I did FS 275 and DL 430 for singles which results in FS/DL = 64%. (I'm an intermediate level lifter. These are not PBs.)

The values provide by Coach Mac indicates the idealized balance is FS/DL = 50%. (I don't know if these are elite, advanced, intermediate, or novice level assumptions.)

Assuming this info might apply to me, how do I read this chart? Is my 1RM DL 100lb too light or is my FS 14% greater than average?  

-K

Kevin,

Perhaps Coach Mac will provide his input, but without a lot of qualifications etc. I would be very skeptical about many of those ratios, as one's physical structure (tall with long legs vs. long torso and short legs; long arms vs. short arms; etc.) and training history (do you do hang cleans regularly, do you ever do heavy deads, and do you ever train arms etc.) are going to have a profound effect on some of these ratios.

This isn't to say that muscle-balancing or what Charles Poliquin refers to as "structural balance" is not important, because it is, especially between opposing muscle groups or amongst the various muscles that are involved in a given movement, since a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. 

However, I personally wouldn't worry about the ratio of my back or front squat to my full deadlift, as this is going to reflect body structure, specific lifting styles, and whether your past training has included heavy deads or not.  And as a thrower I certainly wouldn't worry much about my arm strength. 

For what it is worth, my front squat to deadlift ratio would be significantly further away from the stated ideal than yours, but I never do full deads and am relatively good at front squats.  There is no way I will ever deadlift what this chart says I should based on my front squat.  Furthermore, my front squat is heavier than it it is "supposed" to be relative to my back squat, even though I do my back squats in a very pure Olympic style and both are done completely raw.  I would also note that the chart equates push presses and jerks (not to mention incline DB presses!), which is ridiculous for anyone who knows how to jerk.

As the saying goes, just my 2 cents.

Peter.

Peter

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

-Kevin 

Mark,

Nice lifts.  I have updated the chart, and you are currently leading in every lift and obviously the total, although you only have the second-best power ratio.  We will see what happens when Craig and the other Pros decide to post.  Thanks for being a trendsetter/pacesetter.

BTW, what is your most recent PR in the deadlift anyway?  Do you happen to know what you were front squatting at the time?  

I don't think deadlifts make you slow, I just don't think they improve your explosiveness as well as cleans or snatches.  A subtle but important difference. 'nuf said about that probably.

One other thing I forgot to note in my post to Kevin - the front squat/deadlift ratio doesn't even hold up for excellent deadlifters who can also front squat. 

I seem to recall Craig's Smith's PR in the deadlift is a little over 700 (I am not sure if this is exactly right, but I believe it is close) while his PR in the front squat is about 515 or so, for a ratio of 70-73%.  I am pretty sure the ratios for Myles, KO, and Greg Hadley would all be over 65% as well.  So I wouldn't worry about yours.

Peter Ingleton wrote:  although you only have the second-best power ratio.

Graeme's looks like it was a jerk.  Was it not?

And, you are pretty much right on about my #'s Peter.  I should have my test done on Saturday, hopefully.

Graeme confirmed to me that it was a push press, not a jerk.  Given the rest of his numbers, I had suspected this might be the case.  He is apparantly a very explosive guy.

nice.  should be something cool to see if as many people get in this as the other test.

C. Smith wrote: nice.  should be something cool to see if as many people get in this as the other test.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone who has done (or is going to do!) the Triathlon test wouldn't do this one.  If anything, more people should do this one since everyone training for HG should be at least familiar with the lifts and be able to test themselves in this way.  Those doing both tests will be able to discover in an objective way the nature of their physical strengths and weaknesses. 

While I don't think it is necessary (and I certainly won't be doing it), those interested in seeing how they perform across the entire speed-strength continuum might consider doing this test, the full Quadrathlon, and an actual or simulated raw (belt only) powerlifting meet.  If you can squat and/or deadlift a ton but your power clean or especially your OHS is much weaker, you need to work on speed and explosiveness.  If your 3-jump test and your OHS are both great but you have a weak front or back squat, you need to get stronger. 

I have updated the chart, and just for fun (since it's so easy to do in Excel) I have added the power clean/front squat ratio for everyone.  Again, while each person's physical structure and especially their training experience and power clean technique will affect this ratio, it's still interesting to see. 

As I noted in another thread, the famous hammer throw coach A. Bondarchuk believed that ideally a thrower's power clean should be about 80% of their front squat.  A significantly higher percentage would indicate a relative lack of limit strength, while a significantly lower percentage would indicate a relative lack of explosiveness (assuming decent power clean technique of course).

OK... I'll post some crappy numbers so that maybe some others will too.

Front - 215, Clean 165, PP 165, BW 205 = 2.66

Pretty sad compared to these other numbers! I thought I was doing ok strength wise when I hit 345 for Back squats and Deadlift, and 240 on bench. I have NEVER done push press or front squats until this week... and I'll bet that given a month or two this new program I improve by leaps and bounds... I'll definetly repost when I get used to these movements, and drop down to throw with the lightweights!

coloradomrg wrote: OK... I'll post some crappy numbers so that maybe some others will too. Front - 215, Clean 165, PP 165, BW 205 = 2.66 Pretty sad compared to these other numbers! I thought I was doing ok strength wise when I hit 345 for Back squats and Deadlift, and 240 on bench. I have NEVER done push press or front squats until this week... and I'll bet that given a month or two this new program I improve by leaps and bounds... I'll definetly repost when I get used to these movements, and drop down to throw with the lightweights!

Don't worry man looks like we're in the same neighborhood.  Hey, this way it will give us someone to both cheer for, and go after, at the same time.  If we start pushing eachother we'll both get stronger.  Plus, at least we were willing to put them up there with these animals... 

I want to play....

BW 275

PC 235 lbs

PP 265 lbs

FS 355 lbs (stopped, but could've kept going)

All completed this past week, can we update as we progress with bigger numbers.

bw 190

pc 225

pp240

fs315

thegnome wrote: Plus, at least we were willing to put them up there with these animals...

I know there are other guys struggling to get moving too, but you'll never know how you stack up and how hard to train until you've compared yourself to some good athletes. I've always been pretty strong for my size, until I got out of school and went to work in the real world where I sit on my butt all day. Know I have to rebuild, and hopefully I can do just that.

I'll repost in a month, same for you gnome?

I'll add mine because I'm now coming back into throwing and have 4 games in the next 4 months.

These are not from the same session as I'm still slightly injured. However I recently did the clean and fs in the same week. Push press is low in comparison as this lift was never focussed on. Did 300lb PC and PP when my PC was 315.

Jono Mac

6'4 bw 288 20yrs

PC - 363

PP- 308

FS- 485

Nice lifting Jono.  I was hoping you would participate in this. 

Good luck in your upcoming Games.

BTW, I have added height to the chart just to round out the data and make it consistent with the Triathlon test.  Those who haven't provided their weight can PM me with it if they want and I will update the chart.

Hey-

http://www.youtube.com/v/3PB9qLcbRRQ&rel=1 - http://www.youtube.com/v/3PB9qLcbRRQ&rel=1

Round 2 - height 5' 10" age 48.75

PC 200, FS 285 & PP 210 / BW 200 = 3.475

3.475 - 3.375 = 0.1 or 2.96% increase over baseline

-K

I know he doesn't really count as a HG athlete as he has only done a caber exhibition...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZY9ARRuKiA - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZY9ARRuKiA  and a haggis hurl...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_2TPjQyl6EI - http://youtube.com/watch?v=_2TPjQyl6EI

but my mate Richie, an oly lifter had the following:

5'5 185lbs 24 yrs

PC: 363

PP: 308

FS: 495

bw total : 6.3

Insanity...

Hey-

For fun

http://www.youtube.com/v/mBtQ4zX3cEc&rel=1 - http://www.youtube.com/v/mBtQ4zX3cEc&rel=1

-K

Jono,

Very impressive lifting by your friend, to say the least.  However, this brings up couple of points (of which I know you are fully aware):

1. A good 185# lifter will always have a much better power to weight ratio than an equally good lifter who weighs 240+.  A power ratio of 5.0 would be sensational for a thrower weighing 240, much less 260+.

2. Less work is involved for a shorter person to lift a given weight than a taller person.  This is irrelevant if you are a lifter but is very relevant for comparison purposes if you are a thrower.  What is a physical advantage leverage-wise in lifting is usually a disadvantage in throwing.  This is one reason I wanted to include everyone's height in the chart.  The other reason is that someone weighing 185 at 5'5" tall is a very different specimen than someone who weighs 185# at 5'10"!

Okay here goes. 6'0" 235 lbs. ( I've lost almost 20lbs. )

235 PC / 215 PP / 245 FS = 695lbs/235lbs = 2.957

Starting point right? Anyway if I post it it will only motivate me more.

thanks Peter

-J-

Terri,

I for one don't care and since there's basically nothing riding on these results I don't know why anyone else would either.

I have never used a fat bar, but I would have guessed that, if anything, it would have resulted in a lower max, not higher.  I am pretty sure this is generally the case for benching and obviously for any pulling movement.  Is this only true for you in the push press?  Any comments regarding the use of the fat bar in general?  They look like they would be more specific to the stone when used for benching and overhead presses, regardless of the weight used.  Anyone else have any experience or reliable second-hand knowledge with repect to these?

C. Smith wrote: Jono - What is the difference in weight between your power clean and your squat clean?

Craig, at present only 22lbs or 10kg. However... I had not worked up to a true max in the squat clean when I blew my knee out with 400lbs... So it could have been more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JiKd9eG-Hw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JiKd9eG-Hw

I've never been a good squat cleaner, but had been getting steadily better and a conservative estimate would have put me around a 410lb squat clean (with no increase in the PC) by year end 2007. Next year will be spent on increasing general strength (squat, dead, weaknesses, grow big guns etc) and not spending as much time soley doing oly lifts. Maybe drink some Iron Bru and get some Power Bars too.

Love watching your videos, your core strength is insane and something I aspire to. 

Jono,

Does this mean you are now training for Strongman competitions?

Hey-

Fun with numbers!

1) copy and paste the table into MS Excel or similar spreadsheet;

2) sort the table -decending, based on Power Ratio;

2) add 3 new columns - PC/BW, PP/BW and FS/BW;

3) run the calculations, format results to percentage;

4) use the percentages directly above yours to calculate what lifts are needed for you to move up one ranking on the table by multiplying your BW by their percentages.

-K 

big MAC wrote: Love watching your videos, your core strength is insane and something I aspire to.

Thanks brother, there was a real easy formula to get what i got 

Kevin,

I can do pretty much whatever you guys want, although at a certain point the chart gets a bit large.  I was originally thinking of sorting the chart by the Power Ratio results, but decided to use Alpha while things got organized.  What do you guys want to see?  I have copied the chart sorted by Power Ratio and (for fun) by Total below.  Adding other columns is easy but I'm not sure if they would really be beneficial. 

No, No, No-

I din't mean for you to change anything Peter, you're do'n jus fine!

I put simple instructions up for all the guys in the table to do it on their own. Anyone who would like to see what it takes to move up to the next ranking can do some simple calculations to see what a new interim goal might be.

Its a festivus for the rest of us!

Sorry for the confusion,

-K

c. smith wrote:   Thanks brother, there was a real easy formula to get what i got

Without getting too complicated; what does a weekly workout look like for you Craig? Please give # of days you work out each week, exercises on each day, sets, and reps if you dont mind. Thanks a lot.

brndnw1023 wrote:   c. smith wrote:   Thanks brother, there was a real easy formula to get what i got  Without getting too complicated; what does a weekly workout look like for you Craig? Please give # of days you work out each week, exercises on each day, sets, and reps if you dont mind. Thanks a lot.

I'm so basic, here's what my training will look like starting in january:

Week 1, day 1 front squat, day 2 push press, day 3 deadlift (M, W, S)

Week 2, day 1 zercher squat, day 2 push press (M, W)

Repeat for weeks 3 - 99812739847127389479817239847.

Every session is max effort heavy, and i usually take a full week off every 4-6 weeks.  Rep wise is usually up to a single, sometimes a double or triple.  My reps in the big stuff is NEVER over 5.  I feel like im just wasting time if i can just rep weight.  I'm not looking for a pump, im not looking to be a bodybuilder, im trying to be the absolute strongest i can be and this is the system that has worked for ME.  The only thing different that my current training includes that it didnt in the past is more rest.  I think that training with some of the scientific approaches, percentages, etc... is just fluff for the most part.  Like Myles says, you only get one lab rat, mine likes to be strong.       

That's it, no magic pill.  Heavy squats, Heavy Deads, and Heavy Presses.  Anything that i do besides those things is just gravy and for the fun of it.  Stuff like Shrugs, Rows, etc... 

Mr. Natural wrote: What games are you trying to peak for in week 99812739847127389479817239847?

Don't act like you dont know.

Peter Ingleton wrote: Jono, Does this mean you are now training for Strongman competitions?

Peter, not really. I just like being 'strong', so will continue to be more well rounded for that. I will train specifically for maybe 4-6 weeks for NZ strongest man next year. This just comes as a result of my inability to commit to 5-7 Oly sessions a week each with a duration of 1.5-4 hours (Friday night max outs!). Full time college and a ton of injury niggles didn't help either. You can't properly rehab a shoulder when you're trying to snatch and CJ every day.

I do however hope to go back to full Oly training end of next year, so I can have say I've made an honest effort at a widely recognised sport. After that I'll probably go into strongman and throwing. We shall see.

Ramble over/

Query: Why don't we/anyone do more incline flyes?Isn't that how we finish a weight throw? ...............................1023 - I've been doing Valenti's chest training - 4 total sets a minute apart - shoulder press, hi angle incline, lo angle incline , flat - dumbell or bar rotate - coupla times a week -take all 4 sets to failure -  focusing on explosive reps 8-10 now - will pyramid down over time - done in 5-6 minutes. Either work your chest or do lots of pushpress or both. Won't hurt at all - I think you need to balance all our pulling w. SOME pressing. And I'm w. you on the vanity thing

M-BAAB wrote: Query: Why don't we/anyone do more incline flyes?Isn't that how we finish a weight throw?

No.  May God have mercy on your torn pec if you do.

All other things being equal, a good bench, or at least the ability to bench a moderate amount of weight very fast (which should be reasonably well correlated if you are training properly) definitely helps both stones.  For the stones/shot, the bench press is probably the 3rd or 4th most important excercise you can do.  I would say squats, push presses/jerks, and a dynamic pull of some kind are all more important, but if you add a good bench to these lifts it will certainly help.  As Mark said, some pure shot putters believe the bench press is second only to squats. 

The thing is, a lot of guys who have big benches but aren't competitive throwers are not necessarily that fast or explosive, which is the absolute key physical attribute.  Someone with a great push press/jerk but a weak bench will beat someone with a big bench but a weak push press/jerk every time, all else being equal.  In addition, while a better bench will help, you definitely don't need to bench at all to throw the open stone 50' or even 55' if you have a good squat, push press, and technique.

A good bench might or might not help both weights depending on your technique.  My LWFD technique is still pretty limited, and my HWFD is non-existent, but I am beginning to learn that they should be thrown rather more like an Olympic hammer than like a discus (which I used to throw).  To the extent that this is true and assuming you throw them this way, your bench shouldn't be that significant to the weights.  However, if you throw them with discus-like technique, then your bench is going to be very important, assuming you end up in a position to use your strength of course.

With respect to how a big bench, or more accurately the muscles that often accompany a big bench, affects the hammer, I would observe two things.  First, it is true that Olympic hammer throwers generally avoid the bench.  However, Francis Brebner's benching and pressing muscles were all huge and he was an excellent hammer thrower.  So I believe that while a good bench obviously does nothing positive regarding the hammer, if you ensure that your flexibility is not compromised (by stretching and/or throwing the hammer a lot) it seems benching won't necessarily hurt your hammer results either.

Peter Ingleton wrote:   In addition, while a better bench will help, you definitely don't need to bench at all to throw the open stone 50' or even 55' if you have a good squat, push press, and not much technique.

FYP Peter.  I don't think anyone will call me a technician. 

-NonBencher

Valenti - of course your stone iwll go further this year.  We're you not benching but still push pressing mid 3s?  Nope.  You are stonger all around, so im not sure you could totally atribute that to the addition of bench.  I will take credit and say its because you zerchered over 500

Also, do you really think your bench press went down that much by just not benching?  If you were doing everything else i find that hard to believe.  I know for a fact i could lay down and push well over 400+, and it wouldnt surprise me if i hit a bench PR.  I wont, but i prolly could. 

M-BAAB wrote: Markie - I've come to the same conclusion- plus I just like to do incline /flies so my chest doesn't fall onto my belly .......................... CooolOne - everytime I see a picture of someone finishing a weightthrow , their pec is definitely involved - especially the 28. - not JUST the pec of course.

I would REALLY argue that there is very little pec activation in a throw, esp in comparision to everything else.  Just sayin....

C. Smith wrote: Peter Ingleton wrote: In addition, while a better bench will help, you definitely don't need to bench at all to throw the open stone 50' or even 55' if you have a good squat, push press, and not much technique.  FYP Peter.  I don't think anyone will call me a technician.  -NonBencher

Craig,

First, although you are obviously not a technical model in the stone, I believe you do a number of basic things right.  Your position at the front of the throw is often excellent, and overall your technique is much better than many other HG athletes. Second, for a HG athlete you have a great front squat and a great push press and are generally very explosive.  I stand by my statement.

With respect to your potential bench pressing abilities, my understanding is that back in the days when lifters still did the overhead press, it was widely held that if you could press 300 pounds then you should be able to bench 400 without any specific preparation.