My personal thoughts on the issue of front squats vs. back squats:

When I was throwing shot and discus years ago under two different National coaches (one of whom was a former Canadian Champ with many years of experience and the other was a former Polish National coach who had a Ph.D in sport studies), we always did Olympic-style back squats.  The depth depended a lot on the individual, how heavy the weight was, and the time of year, but most of the guys typically went about an inch or two below parallel (except for those with really long legs).  We almost never did front squats, and that was also the case for most of the elite throwers I met or heard about.  If you look at the training programs of most of the Europeans (at least from 10-20 years ago) you will see they focussed on the back squat.

However, I believe Front Squats have increased in popularity since that time.  Certainly many hammer throwers utilize fronts a lot and I believe a number of spin shot putters have found them to be very useful as well.  Front squats are also very popular with HG athletes, largely because of their superior transfer to the WOB, hammers, and probably caber.  They are generally considered to be a more pure test of leg strength.

In terms of the movements themselves, the back squat utilizes the hips and low back more (a lot more if the power squat syle is used, which I wouldn't) while the front squat hits the quads in particular as well as the mid-back more.  The back squat obviously allows you to use more weight, which can be a good thing, and holding the weight is a non-issue.  Having said this, with some practice and experience, holding the weight properly in the front squat eventually becomes a non-issue too, at least for reps up to 5.  Reps over 5 are not recommended in the front squat, and many lifters limit their heavy work sets to triples. 

With respect to depth, it is very important to go at least below parallel in the front squat, whereas you have more options with the back squat, depending on your abilities, your specific goals, and the time of year.  My philosophy is the lower the better early in the year, but perhaps changing to parallel squats or sometimes even 90 degree knee-angle "half squats" close to or in season.  Personally, I think you should usually be going as low as possible in your fronts, as this really works the VMO muscle (the teardrop muscle above your knee) which is very important for knee stability and jumping but is often underdeveloped.  Deep squats also ensure the hamstrings are developed in conjunction with the quads.

If you have the time, energy, and recuperation abilities to do two squat workouts a week, a good plan is to do back squats one day (generally to parallel or below) and front squats the other.  If you want to include a dynamic day (but without a box) do fronts on this day.  Box squats are often discouraged for athletes other than powerlifters, although that is certainly not a universal opinion.

Although none of the throwers I knew, spoke with, or read about ever really did deadlifts (focussing instead on some combination of power cleans, high pulls, and power snatches in addition to heavy squats), for those who do employ full deadlifts, front squats might be better since they utilize your low back and hips less, areas that are hit very hard by heavy deads.

Markie - tried box fronts the other day after watching the Westside guy- when you sit on the box , are you supposed to relax post. chain and then go? That's what I did and I felt pitifully weak. Am I doing this right?

Mark,

I thought someone might call me on that, but decided to leave well-enough alone.  I probably should either not have said anything or else explained myself further.  I did make it clear that this was not a universal opinion.  You are certainly correct that John Smith (a notable exception), his athlete Dan Taylor, Louie Simmons' athlete Kevin Akins, and several HG athletes use(d) box squats to varying extents.  I am not aware of many T&F throwers who do/did.

Charles Poliquin certainly advocates against box squats for athletes other than powerlifters, and he is largely responsible for the weight training programs used by Adam Nelson.  I have copied a post from Nelson himself below, as well as a detailed post from Poliquin.  Jud Logan is also a disciple of Poliquin, although I know he also trained with and was influenced by Simmons earlier in his career.  However, it is very clear that most of the routines and techniques he uses and advocates are borrowed directly from Poliquin.  Jud is on record as saying the second-most important lift for throwers is the Olympic front squat, with the clean-grip power snatch being the most important.  He has also explained that he really backed off the very heavy back squats etc. during the second half of his career, indicating that this type of training was incompatible with high-level throwing.

With respect to Jurgen Schult, I would be AMAZED if he ever did what North Americans call "box squats".  I suspect this is a misinterpretation of what might be called "bench squats", which were a staple of the German throwers in particular.  These are done down to a bench/box, but in contrast to "box squats" the bench is simply used as a trigger, with the athlete exploding upwards as soon as the bench is touched lightly.  At no time does one actually sit on the bench prior to rising, unlike the box squat.  These are generally done to a 90 degree knee angle, i.e. 2-3 inches above parallel, but sometimes even higher, especially in season.

Adam Moderator Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 601

http://www.throwclean.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=2527#2527"> Posted:     Post subject: http://www.throwclean.com/phpBB/posting.php?mode=quote&p=2527"> I can't speak for Poliquin on box squats. I've never spoken to him about this. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the extreme interpretation of the box squat. _________________ Adam Throw Fair, Throw Far, Throw Clean!

It should be also kept in mind that Poliquin is... oh, what's the technical term... insane.

That being said, I think Peter is right here as well:

in contrast to "box squats" the bench is simply used as a trigger, with the athlete exploding upwards as soon as the bench is touched lightly.  At no time does one actually sit on the bench prior to rising, unlike the box squat.

I expect box squats done in an explosive fashion to a high box would have a lot of useful carryover to throwing, which I think Peter also mentions.

Peter's a smart guy.

I'm with you, Jeff. Box squats have always been a staple for me, and always help jack up my front and back squats. I use a ton of variations with them, generally for 4 week cycles, then cycle back to either front or back squats...depending on the time of year.

Mike, you want to avoid relaxing your post chain, but focus on releasing your hips. You see a lot of guys who box squat sitting and rocking back on the box. This is unnecessary. The key is releasing the hips. It's a suble movement that is noticable if you make sure your shins are positioned at an angle of around 110 degrees. I'd suggest watching Mike Kroczaleski, he nails it.

You might also want to play around with different heights in terms of the boxes you use. Generally at the start of my box squat cycle I'll spend 2 weeks using a box that is just slightly higher than parallel. After 2 weeks I'll move to box around the 14" range.

For me, box squats = gains and farther throws.

I spent an entire year doing a Poliquin program designed for Adam Nelson. The emphasis on muscle balance had me doing all kinds of questionable movements (pull ups and variations, squat holds, excessive flat and incline bench). I will say that my stone did improve that year, but I saw a decline in my hammers. Actually, now that I think about I don't recall setting any big PR's that year.

The program was innovative. I enjoyed some of the stuff, and it was challenging. I recall doing 45 second squat hold, snatch and clean pulls of blocks, lots of isometric and unilatteral stuff, VMO stuff, but again, it didn't have the effect I hoped it would for a highland games athlete.

I thought I should add a couple of comments to this.

First, I would like to point out that some of the first articles I posted to this section were three articles by Louie Simmons that included his thoughts and recommendations regarding box squats, along with two articles by John Smith, who also includes box squats in his throwers' lifting programs.  I think it is important that people know about the thoughts and philosophies of these men. 

Smith in particular should be considered, since he has studied both the East German and Westside programs in detail and taken what he believes or has determined to be the best of both worlds for the training of throwers.  One might be tempted to ask why he would feel the need to modify the highly-refined programs of the East Germans, but we shall let that pass.  I might also note that Smith recommends always using bands (either from above or below) with box squats, which has the effect of reducing the weight at the point one is sitting on the box. 

If done carefully, there is certainly no harm in experimenting with box squats and making up one's own mind.  This was the approach taken by powerlifter Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield, a former multiple world record holder in the squat.  He concluded that there were better training methods than box squats, even for powerlifters.  You will have to take his word on that, as I have no experience at all in that area.

I had hoped to hear from some others regarding this issue, e.g. Coach Mac, 17/20, Trainerterry, Bert, Steve Dering, or even Ryan and the other Pros?

Peter Ingleton wrote:  and the other Pros?

Here's my thoughts then...box squats are dumb.

Peter Ingleton wrote: One might be tempted to ask why he would feel the need to modify the highly-refined programs of the East Germans

Drugs. The DDR used lots of 'em, we don't (hopefully). Did you not see Rocky IV?

Dave,

First, you are obviously right.  Second, I hope so too (but have serious doubts - enough said).  Third, there is little if anything about the DDR's lifting programs that would require significant modification for clean athletes, unlike the pro bodybuilding routines.  Fourth, although he was obviously "on", at the 1988 Olympics Timmermann was supposedly only about 252# at 6'4" tall (while clean at that moment), and never got above 265 - not exactly a monster.

BTW, I find your tongue-in-cheek reference to Rocky IV ironic given the long-term rumours about Stallone and his well-publicized troubles in Australia last year.

The DDR used lots of 'em, we don't

Depends on who you mean by 'we'.

Rocky IV is awesome.

The part that always gets to me when these discussions occurr is the constant referencing of what certain elite athletes do.... now that they are elite or have been for some time.  On a regular basis I get our athletes (small DIII college) who bring up pro or DI strength programs they get copies of.  Last week a kid started discussing Alber Pujols and his training.  I looked at the kid and said that I have never met an athlete like Pujols so why would I have one do the same.  I wish there was an article about what Timmerman was doing when he was 15... how did these athletes develope to the point where they now rely on certain exercises.

The basic need for an exercise should address the athlete, their strengths and most important their weaknesses.  I start all athletes with a basic Gray Cook functional screen.  Granted most of these athletes are not at the training level of most who have posted.  One of the first tests is an overhead squat....many lack the mechanics and stability to accomplish the exercise.  So if that is a weakness I have the exercise added.  To help teach the movement I go with box squats often- athlete sits like on a chair and stands up- wo very basic easy movement.  then work with athlete raising hands above head from a seat- stand with arms still overhead.

For front squats - I believe it places the athlete in a strong athletic position for many if not all sports. 

My thought on the box squat is I love them to no end.  Within 2 weeks of ACL surgery I have my athletes doing a modified box squat.  It is very easy to teach and learn.  Most people who have trouble squatting have trouble with the mechanics of lowering themselves under stress.  The box squat can help place focus on standing up which we can all do.  I believe the box squat -especially if a foam pad is placed on teh box- is easier on the joints -Westside has been working with this-another great job by Simmons.  The hardest part of the squat is often the stopping at the bottom.  The only prblem with the box squat would rest with those who focus on the fact that you are not in an athletic position and that the butt ends up too far back and we are not in a good athletic position. 

I get a lot of therapists who are against box squats because of the spinal load etc.  I tell them if you maintain proper posture it is not there.  I believe you should work both touch and go on the box as well as a pause to unload the hips.  The first takes advantage of the stretch reflex while the pause will lessen the stretch reflex.

The question for me is the importance of converting downward force to upward force in the shortest amount of time. I've always called it Reversal Strength, but it's loading or absorbing on the eccentric, follwed by a powerful contraction on the concentric. Now with that being said the Back Squat and Front Squat are the only choices. 

Kerry,

How much do you back squat and what style do you use?  How low do you go?  Does this change over the course of the year?  Do you wear a belt and/or wraps?

Terry,

If you are doing a touch and go squat onto a box with a foam pad on it, is this still a "box squat" or are you into what I call a "bench squat"?  When you are doing these, I assume you still use the box squat style, i.e. sitting way back, as opposed to more of an Olympic style?  I am just curious, as the bench squats I refer to are done using what is essentially the Olympic style, with the bench just there as a depth gauge and a trigger.  Thanks for your input.

For what it's worth, I do box squat but VERY rarely go heavy that way. I like to use them on a speed day. Generally banded and as often as not in touch and go style. I've recently been tinkering with box squatting using a safety squat bar on to 4" of foam on a low box, sink in and come to a complete stop releasing the hips but staying tight in the back, then try to power out of the hole. Very humbling. Remember the basic truth - Everything works, but nothing works forever.

Carlos pretty musch described my use of the foam.  I got a coupon from my mom to Joann Fabrics (40% off) and bought a 9 foot by 3 foot section of 6 inch foam (high density - a lil expensive) 

Works great- before that I messed with a BOSU on a box - too wide

a dyna disc (looks like a small flat bosu) on a box - worked okay

The foam limits the jolt at the bottom.... but to get off of the foam after the pause is like moving in sand

Trainerterry wrote: The foam limits the jolt at the bottom.... but to get off of the foam after the pause is like moving in sand

Both true but the second half of that is my motivation. The first time I did it I could hardly believe how intensely it hits the glutes. You might not notice it that much while you do it (hell, you're struggling so hard just to get the f*ck up you won't notice much of anything), but you will know it the next day.

Peter,

My regular back squat right now is in the 5s  maybe 6 not really sure yet.  i use a  ass to grass style of squat when doing regular squat  i am not really way wide.  i do switch to a high box squat in the middle of the yr because im still doing heavy wt but just not taxing myself as bad.  I do not wear a belt on deads or squats,  i do loose wrap the knees just because my ole friend SHea told me too..  As I said I will switch over to regular squats in about 3 weeks.

Kerry,

Sounds like a good plan.  I like the no-belt philosophy.  One last question - when you switch to the "high box squat" in the middle of the year, is that actually a box squat, where you sit way back and maybe actually sit on the box, or is it done in your "normal" squatting style with a very light touch and go on the box?  Just want to understand what you are doing, because those are two different things.  Also, what would the height of this box be in relation to parallel, a couple of inches above, or what? Thanks for your input.

I have not done a ton of box squats, actually, just starting to use them more. Historically I was a wide(r) stance back squatter (in the 90's) and worked up to 500x8 with no belt at a bw of 230. Around 2000 I got knee surgery, and then switched to more front squats, and moved my stance in to become more "sports specific". I used a Poliquin plan in 2003 (via Jud logan) using 1 1/4 squats, single leg stuff etc, and my front squat finally topped 405 and back squatted 608x2 weighing 239. I was strong that year, but my throws were not very impresseve although consistant (65-67m everyday).

The next year 2004 (Oly year) I went back to more speed work, and ended up hitting 450 front squat at 240, but never went for the big back squat due to injury risk, but at this time I felt 660 (330k) was doable. Throws went MUCH better this year, as I averaged 68-69m with a PR of 72.26m. Maybe the base of strength and reduction of functional weaknesses carried over that year form the year before.

Recently (2005-2007) I had almost gotten away from back squats completely due to the low back strain in the low position, front squats allowed me to stay more upright and still get some good work in, and throw pretty far. I would use back squats every few weeks, and never worked up to over 510 in 3 years. My front squat hovered in the 365-420 area during this time. At this time I did not as much pulling (oly or otherwise) from the floor.

VERY recently (last 12 weeks) - I learned to box squat, which was very difficult to perform due to tight hamstrings from NOT back squatting or pulling much from the floor. (which is what I lived on 1994-2000). After a few workouts with the box squats my back loosened up, got stronger and hammies and am in better shape. I moved out my stance again in the back squat, which reduced forward knee travel (in my opinion reducing athletic carry-over) but packed on strength and size in my hips and thighs that I used to carry.

Now I am rotating many types of squats in a single month: single leg, front, back, box, zercher and even "front grunts" which are lockouts out of the 1/2 squat position (12" of the top of ROM) with weight up to 585lb. holding it one the shoulders clean / front squat style. This will freak out your system and cause you to stabilized the hell out of your torso. They were fun. This month I have hit PR's or near in 4 of the 6 methods. I do not like one specific style too much, because I think the body gets into a groove too much, and cannot do another movement. I have had a 1040lb. squatter not be able to hang with us in the single leg squats because of inbalances. He will get much better, and probably surpass us when he gets his quads stronger.

On a side note, I think there are TOO many people who are either:

"I box squat only" or "box squats suck and I wll never do them"

IMHO both are wrong. Box squat (and many other variations) are great for fixing specific weaknesses, but do not directly produce big throws. I have simply seen too many people who only box squat that cannot properly free squat, jump or throw at a high level.  (there are SOME that can, but I have seen more that can't).

OK, I am rambling now, and I have to go back to work. Good discussion. If you have read this far, thank you, and you probably need to get back to work too.

kover wrote: My good friend Craig and I had this talk on the way home from a game.  We decided that since your never really that deep when we throw that I should try higher box squats.  My box squats are about half squat position and that is a touch and go (as deep as we go in a throw)   my go is explosive.  I go upward as fast and explosive as possible.   I will use lighter wts and heavier loads depending on how I feel.  As a highland games thrower we are never as deep as we are in the full squat position.   THis would probably be about 6 inches above my normal squat

^^ Just goes to show that because i don't think box squats are that great, doesn't mean we haven't discussed and put together things including them in it.

I would say over the last 5 years or so, KO and i have logged more training talk time than most...

kover wrote:   My box squats are about half squat position and that is a touch and go (as deep as we go in a throw)   my go is explosive.  I go upward as fast and explosive as possible.

Okay, just to be clear, that is not what I call a "box squat", but rather a "bench squat" (simply in order to distinguish the two).  What you are doing is straight out of the East Germans' training routine and has a lot of logic (not that you need me to tell you that). 

An interesting story that I have told before:

The day before Udo Beyer set a new World Record in the shot put in Los Angeles in 1983, my coach personally witnessed him doing two sets of about 6 very explosive reps with 800 or 900 pounds down to a bench built up with foam pads to about quarter squat height.  Beyer's PR in the half-squat (90 degree knee angle - probably about 3 inches above parallel for him, although it might have been higher) was 460kg (1012 lbs.) for 5 reps, while his squat to just below parallel was 375 kg (825 lbs.) for a single.  He probably never did front squats either.

C. Smith wrote: kover wrote: As a highland games thrower we are never as deep as we are in the full squat position.   THis would probably be about 6 inches above my normal squat

I'm still working on over all strength ,obv, but while it's fresh:

Currently I'm Back & Front Squatting / Clean pulls( just short of catching) Deads & Push Presses.  Come spring would if be beneficial to include a half range squat?  I'm interpreting them previous posts to imply a box/bench squat may be more "sport specific".  I already planned on some plyo's, dots & drills.

Or should I just keep on keep'n on till I get to that 2 x bw plus level?  Even throughout the season due to the lack of strength & expierence

thanks in advance guys

-JS-

Once you start throwing a lot and/or get closer to competitive season, I think switching to front squats done to just below parallel once a week and back squats to a few inches above parallel once a week would be a good idea.  Step-ups would also work well during this period as well.  Front squats, half squats, and step-ups are all much easier on the low back than deep back squats and are all probably more "sports specific".  When you switch to half squats you might consider adding some sprinting to your routine if you don't do them already.  These will both help improve your general speed and explosiveness and keep your hamstring development up, something half-squats don't do.

Doing moderately heavy half-squats in an explosive fashion once at least once a week (on Mondays) during the competitive season is also a good idea to prevent significant strength loss over the summer.

OK screwed that up, however, wanted to respond to the HEAVY 1/2 SQUAT .....  . Recently adopted Heavy Hi-rep, Very Explosive 1/2 or 1/4 Back Squats to Toe Extension into the Sun. routine. I've completed 8 weeks x1 per week working up to 330 plus 120 lbs chains 3x10. On Wed. I also did Heavy Trap Bar Jumps 3-5 reps (approaching 315) sinking to the 1/4 squat position.The results on my vertical have been amazing. Tested 6" higher than last year. I should add that my knee is close too a 100% which is a big factor. DeFranco was my motivation in adopting this movement- he uses as part of his vertical training routines.  I'm sold on the explosive 1/2 to 1/4 Back Squats. Plan on adopting for the competitive season. 

Good advice Peter       

Thanks guys.

Mr. Vierra & a couple of other pro's have recommended the jumps shrugs/squats in other posts; & Ryan's word is gospel as far HG is concerned IMHO.

I plan on sticking w/ the lifting year round probably taper back to 2 days a week when I don't have a comp & mondays when I do. That provide enough training time to implement the advice I've gotten.

thanks again

-JS-

Rick - stold it all - Zerchs from the Mayor - fronts/deads from the hack - jumpshrugs from RV - jumpsquats from the Stewart - technique from Rv clinic and Joe Lane - snatch complexes from Steve Dering - snatches to the split from you . Never did ANY of these before.

Lower your arc on the first turn and bend your old, arthritic knees - Bogue

J.Payne - not sure, at this point: 1. Sun Speed Squating Sun 15x2,(light), 200-250 2. Back Squat 1/2 to1/4 w/ 120 lbs of chains, 3x10 (med.hvy) 300/120-330/120 these are done to full toe extension. They are done very fast, with a smooth transition into the toe raise. Try and create alot of downward force by dropping fast absorbing the tension and reversing. 3.hi-box step ups 3x5, (hvy) 150-200. 4. RDL 3x15 @ 315. Wed. 1.Front Squat 3-5x5,(med-hvy) 2.300-350 Jump Shrugs (below),3. Split Squat 3x15/15, Short sprints 20 x10 yds. Just a word -I'm just trying to stay healthy and explosive. If I can maintain my strength (closing on 49) level with this scheme I'll take it -time will tell.    

M.Baab- ? Jump Shrugs, I'm getting air with 275-315, sets of 3-5. With the 315 I/m working real hard to catch and reset on the landing.? Throwing I'm working around the weather these days. Hammer winds x2 per week,shot/stone drill x2per week, wt fr dist x2 per week - just in the garage, unable to release.     

Thanks Don - that's gonna be my next 2 workouts! Appreciate.

Danny, I like them w/ the Chains.  My first 4 week cycle I used bands - which resulted in alot more down force. A little too much (green) at that point. I will do another 4 week session with them. I've alwaysjump squated (JS) VERY HVY 3 weeks out, eg. wk.1,5x4 @ 275 wk.2,4x3@ 300 wk.3,(Sun)3x2 @325. I just plan on working the Rhythm Squat very hard throughout the off season, then going to the JS in season.More dynamic,like getting off the ground.This concurrent with a similar rep and set routine for the Snatch Grip Hi-Pull (10% more wt) have worked for me. Throw in something fast and hvy. for the upper body and everything should be firing.In a perfect situation this would be 3 consecutive Sundays leading up to a games.          

Transportation to the Worlds-Jurkoic and I are renting the giant Hot Dog car from Dumb and Dumber. Room for two more. Just gotta watch out for those gay rest stops on 90, Barron country

dWood wrote: well in "Something About Mary" it was stated that highway rest stops are the homosexual pick up bars..didn't know this till I stopped at one with the MWR and he got very upset at what was coming out of a hole in the wall(i think he called it a non-glory hole)needless to say we dumped a full bucket of mop water on the offenders head and a 315lb & 245lb kilted,sligtly inebriated couple  of men were  seen running from the bathroom yelling at Terri to start the car-lets haul

OOOFFF!  That aint right.  Funny, but wrong as can be.....  That guy saw Kilts and thought he had a home run!     

There is a post UNDER training-section on FRONT SQUATS with some other options worth seeing;

Train smarter NOT harder !

This was a Max Effort Day about three years ago and # 3 on our all time
list ( # -2 for a frosh) :safety squat onto an ANTI BURST (2,200 lb) ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0&NR=1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0&NR=1

We use this later in the season and call it CONTRAST Training.  I t is timed and we hope to DROP the time.  You couls supplement box jumps as an alternative to the stairs.  The stair record is 2.6 seconds at a bodyweight of 283-lbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz4DZBecHZs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz4DZBecHZs

[QUOTE=Coach Mac]This was a Max Effort Day about three years ago and # 3 on our all time
list ( # -2 for a frosh) :safety squat onto an ANTI BURST (2,200 lb) ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0/QUOTE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0[/QUOTE ]

Your vid is not avalible to out siders.

Box squat is a tool to use like any other.  How about pause squats to ruin the reversal, does that make you crazy Mike?  And I like very deep box squats down to 9 inch, pretty low for 6'2, 265.  Super deep fronts with a pause.  While listening to a balad.  Now that is tough. 

I just think a lot of explosion or white fiber or what ever we want to call it is cast in your hand at birth, I don't think you effect your explosion at a game in a few months by the movement you pick to make you strong right now.  Can you get better at jumping on a box for a few weeks, sure.  But does that really make you more explosive, or a better box jumper.  Sorry C and KO, but I like the deep, full range, the whole deal, full enchalata, as I want my hambone and glute to get in the game.   

Silverback wrote: Box squat is a tool to use like any other.  How about pause squats to ruin the reversal, does that make you crazy Mike?  And I like very deep box squats down to 9 inch, pretty low for 6'2, 265.  Super deep fronts with a pause.  While listening to a balad.  Now that is tough.  I just think a lot of explosion or white fiber or what ever we want to call it is cast in your hand at birth, I don't think you effect your explosion at a game in a few months by the movement you pick to make you strong right now.  Can you get better at jumping on a box for a few weeks, sure.  But does that really make you more explosive, or a better box jumper.  Sorry C and KO, but I like the deep, full range, the whole deal, full enchalata, as I want my hambone and glute to get in the game.

Myles...spoken as a pure plow mule...!!!  I LOVE your intensity and passion.  Here is some food for thought ( ? ) from the Irish Throws Coach

For every muscle in the body, there is another muscle that is capable of opposing its force. This “pairing” mechanism is how we are able to move with precision of movement and speed. However, when one part of this pair becomes too strong in relation to the other, force output capability suffers.
Many athletes often reinforce this inequity every time they train, thinking they are respecting the principle of specificity by training only the prime movers (or “agonists”). An example would be a martial artist who reasons that since the quadriceps muscle extends the leg during kicking, the quadriceps should receive the brunt of the training focus. Soon, the hamstrings (which are the antagonists in kicking movements) become weak in proportion to the quads, and power output declines.

There are throws coaches who only have their athletes do 1/4 squats reasoning that this is the approximate range of motion of the throw.
The student understandably (but incorrectly) concludes that weight training “slows you down,” because for him, it did.
Weak antagonists contract prematurely to oppose the prime movers, resulting in reduced movement speed. Stronger antagonists are less sensitive to this protective response-the body “knows” that they are strong enough to decelerate the limb at the last possible moment. As an observation, the lats and biceps of elite level boxers are always well developed.
Weak stabilizers also limit power output. Stabilizers are muscles, which anchor or immobilize one part of the body, allowing another part (usually the limbs) to exert force. The most important stabilizers are those of the trunk- the abdominals and trunk extensors. If the motor cortex detects that it can’t stabilize the force provided by the prime movers, it simply wouldn’t allow the prime mover to contract with full force.

For example a study 
by Farthing and Chilibeck (2003) found that "eccentric fast training is 
the most effective for muscle hypertrophy and strength gain". This is in 
accordance with the findings of Paddon-Jones et al. (2001) that 
following a fast eccentric training program led to a decrease in type I 
fibers (from 53.8% to 39.1%) while type IIb fiber percentage increased 
(from 5.8% to 12.9%). In contrast, the slow eccentric group did not 
experience significant changes in muscle fibre type or muscle torque. 

p.s. We spend about 6-months out of the year building the stabilizers as this is your LIMIT STRENGTH !   Did you look at the You Tube videos ?  I t should all make sense then.

This is a MAX Effort

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0&NR=1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXOzxS0DH0&NR=1