I've never done a box squats in my life I have always done squats ATF. Whats a good rule of thumb for the box placement behind the rack. I know the fundamentals of how to do them just not sure how far back that box should be when I reach to sit on it?

I thought I would add them to my off season training this year to see if they help.

I think I found my answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue_GrU4mhqc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue_GrU4mhqc

The explanation doesnt get any better, however I prefer to keep me feet closer together, I think its more applicable to what we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjD60EReZr8&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjD60EReZr8&feature=relat ed

+1 Greg...  I kinda use a mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d51ErnKJe0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d51ErnKJe0

Great video, Gene. Man you've got a sweet set-up.

At this point in the offseason I do a lot of box squats. Granted I don't sit back on the box as far as Dave Tate did in his explanation video, but I do try to get the angle of my shin at least to 90 degrees. When I shift to bench squats the angle of the shin is less of a priority.

Sitting back is what Im after, just sitting down seemed a bit pointless with my mix of Zerchers and squats and DL the true box squat hits the glut and hams muscles. I need to improve my explosion and DL and this will help it.

Thanks for the extra insite

Here's some of the stuff I've been doing lately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm4eBY6vprc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm4eBY6vprc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-liCYxxlQs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-liCYxxlQs

CraigGallo wrote: make sure your feet dont come up when u rock back. you can also add a foam pad to the box to make it harder.

The addition of the foam is to make it harder ? In what way . Perhaps , making it harder on the core to stabalize on the box ? I thought the foam was a way to train you to decend quicker to the box or help you lose that inhibition to sit back fast .

Yes according to big Lou's explination down fast up faster dont squat as the Mule states sit back and explode up using the glutes first and hams to pull yourself forward not the quads.

Here is Part 2 of West side explination

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t156u5VuBTw&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t156u5VuBTw&feature=relat ed

Greg nice work.

From today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQNIZlENEME - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQNIZlENEME

Also, check out some of the madness coming from Country Harbour, Nova Scotia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUcEZBzSZNM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUcEZBzSZNM

Here is some food for thought from Charles Polquin on BOX SQUATS:

The Lift Athletes Should Avoid

Q: Is there a lift you'd never have an athlete do?

A: One lift I don't like very much for athletes is the box squat. I never prescribe it. 

For one thing, there are a lot of better, less injurious alternatives. Many lifters, when they get fatigued or they lose concentration, will bounce off the box and get fractures in their sacral vertebrae. I may have 70 different tools that work and are safe, and one that may be potentially unsafe. Which one do I pick when working with highly paid athletes that I must get strong in only 11 weeks?

If you do use the box squat for powerlifting applications, remember that it requires very good coaching and someone there to make sure you stay on the ball. I wouldn't prescribe the box squat to an athlete training alone. With a full squat, on the other hand, you don't see those injuries.

Also, outside of powerlifting, the mechanics of box squatting are not found in sport. I don't know of any sport where the shins don't travel forward for propulsion.

Now, you can use box squats sparingly in your training if you're a bodybuilder. They'll certainly hypertrophy the glutes and thighs. But bodybuilding isn't an athletic endeavor

I actually agree with Poliquin. 

I never box squat, never will.

I would venture a guess that Craig Gallo has more box squat experience than anyone on the board. 

I am looking at these as an alternative to back squatting since my fracture im looking at tools that will hit the muscle groups with out the weight im used to doing. If I can squat 600 I know I will not be able to BS 400 hope less weight will get some of the benefits of heavy back squatting. Just trying to mix it up from time to time for the most part. Zerchers and DL will still be my main lifts.

kover wrote: well i have my athletes do them and they love em and they are much stronger because of them...

Are you saying they are stonger than they would be if they just full squatted?

actually yes.. because i kno my kids are getting deep enough,, there is never a problem with them being low enuff....

i first started out..doing regular squats. when i moved over to box squats my kids got stronger....

I personally don't do them at all. Some guys I lift with swear by the box squat and think it helps their DL as well. I just think since they are gear whores, they never do full squats to depth and the box just makes them finally hit depth.

here is all i kno   i started box squatting 3 yrs ago and my throws are better... proof is in the pudding for me... I do full squats , banded squats ,,1 leg squats... high box in season.... i do them all guys .. but i do like the  box squats..

Deep has never been a problem for me I was taught to squat ATF the box squat feels way differnt ot me because your sitting back not realy sqauating.

Are you saying your the National Champ because you box squat?

kover wrote: i started box squatting 3 yrs ago and my throws are better

I started playing poker 3 years ago and my throws are better

kover wrote: I also want to add that with my athletes they do many variations of squats not just the box squat...

So what you're saying is that you're not really sure that they have made the earth shattering difference that you claimed above?  Or is it merely that you make them hit depth now?

YES steve box squats made me a natl champ  

im disagreeing with the fact that box squat is not good for athletes actually.....It has worked great for my athletes...That is all

I started playing poker 3 years ago and my throws are better......

Thats because your a freak of nature..... ...If you trained like me you would win every game.....

Wonder what'll happen if this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyNeKH3iDq4&NR=1 - box squatter ever comes back to the Highland Games

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6186&KW=Squats - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=618 6&KW=Squats

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8069&KW=bench+squat - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=806 9&KW=bench+squat

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8308&KW=bench+squat - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=830 8&KW=bench+squat

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4072&KW=box+squat&PN=0&TPN=2 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=407 2&KW=box+squat&PN=0&TPN=2

Lots of info in these posts.  Kerry, are your high-box squats still touch and go style as opposed to the Westside "Box Squat" style?  Again, FWIW, if you are basically using the box as a depth marker or trigger and are not actually sitting on it, I refer to these as "Bench Squats" as opposed to "Box Squats" to distinguish the two, as these are quite different lifts.

I think box squats (rock back ones) are great to cycle into training for posterior chain strength. I know guys who have made huge deadlift gains after just box squatting for 8-12 week cycles.

For me though, I'll only do them to 1" below parallel with my normal stance. Top weight will be 500x5 fully raw off a max belt and wraps squat around 700.

I did some box squats first time this year. I couldn't do much else because of my knee, and they helped in rehabbing/getting back some leg strength. Honestly, I really didn't feel much carryover to throwing. Now I'm back to front squats, snatches and RDLs and I can already feel a difference.

Horsepower is good, functional strength is better.

A bench squats would seem pointless. Why not just do a regular squat? The box sqaut is realy not a sqaut its a sit back and pause then pull off the box not push off the box. Right?

While I really like "regular" squats too, the point behind bench squats is to use the bench or box as a depth marker and trigger.  When your glutes touch it, you change directions immediately and explode upwards.  Be careful not to hit the bench hard or you can hurt yourself.  I like to add some foam to the top of the bench to avoid this, so there is really no weight transfer to the bench at all and no possibility of jarring your spine if you are being reasonably careful.

The benefit is you hit a consistent depth and don't have to think about how far to go down.  If you are used to doing squats ATG or to below parallel all the time, it can initially be a bit difficult to determine exactly when to reverse directions if you do not want to go down that far. 

These are virtually alway used for squats done to at least an inch or two above parallel (or higher), although they can be used at any depth as a marker, especially during testing.  Basic bungee cords strung between a power rack work well for this latter application.

Ok I see. I set my safety bars as my marker for all regular squats even Zerchers when the bar touches the safety I explode up same theory different method.

Same theory, but I hate it when the bar touches the safety rods in the middle of a set...

ok i am bored now  i have stirred up enough box squat debate...bottom line box squats help you get stronger.....so does regular squats..pick one do them..

on a serious note...I love to train,,,

i like trying new excercises..i box squat..band squat ..rev band squat..1 leg squat..stepups..ec,etc,   .....there is not one magic excercise.........I think if your lifting consistently and hard it will help your throws....

as i have always said  i never heard an athlete say...."darn i was just to strong today"...

S McCracken wrote: can squats cure cancer?

Yes.

I heard only if you do alot of reps with heavy weight.

I would not include box squats in your training for sports outside of powerlifting.  Box squats have gotten popular over the past few years because of their use at the Westside Barbell club and their results in powerlifting.  But for other sports they pose some problems.

Box squats as they are practiced now are really for powerlifting, and more importantly, within the particular federations where the majority of those lifters compete.  There is no evidence that they have specific applications to other sports, on the contrary, they can be detrimental to your performance.

The general objection to box squats is there danger from spinal compression.  Lifters do usually do use some sort of pad on the box to soften the impact, but it only takes a moments lack of concentration or fatigue to bounce off the box and crack a sacral vertabrae.

But probably the best reason to not box squat is the fact that they will impede your performance.  As I pointed out before, box squatting as practiced today was really created for powerlifters.  Louie Simmons, who popularized box squatting points out that an advantage of box squatting is the fact that it teaches proper squat form.  You sit back and maintain a 90-degree at your knee, which does not travel forward.  The problem is, this ignores the mechanics of every other sport, in which the knee does travel forward, providing propulsion to the leg stroke.  So in this instance, you are creating a weakness.

The other problem is that box squats make the piriformis muscle muslce abnormally tight.  This will interfere with your ability to move your body in different directions.

Finally, there is nothing you can accomplish with box squats that you cannot accomplish with properly performed regular back squats or other forms of squats.  Read Ernie Frantz' 10 commandments of powerlifting, pavel tsatsouline's Power to the People or Beyond Bodybuilding and Fred Hatfield's Powerlifting: A Scientific Approach.  Any of them will explain why.

For anyone to say that box squat dont have carryover to the highland games is just funny to me. It does have carryover, just not to every event. 50% of the squats I do are box squats. There is no way I would ever stop doing them. Strong is strong, I dont care what kind of squats you do.

"I am Duncan McCallum, and I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of box-squatting. You've come to squat as free men... and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you squat?"

"Squat? No! We will leg press. And we will live."

"Aye, squat and you may die. Leg press, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the leg presses, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take...OUR SQUATS!

Just freaking squat...geez.  Front, back, ATG, box, Zerk...just do a few.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Quick to the point, to the point to fakin', cookin' MC's like a pound of bacon...

Gene,

You are essentially correct, and yet some of these forms vary dramatically from one another in both style and effect.  This is the reason I am generally so specific when I refer to how lifts are performed. 

In the case of the "Box Squat", while there are obviously sub-variations, I really think there are two completely separate lifts that should be identified as such but are often confused.  In my opinion, "Box Squats" refer to a lift where there is a momentary pause and unloading onto the box, i.e. one actually sits back and down onto the box.  Sitting back as opposed to down is generally another feature of this style.  A very wide stance is also often used with this style, but that would be considered a sub-variation.  The "Westside Box Squat" would include all of these elements.

In contrast, what I call "Bench Squats" are more or less normal Olympic or "athletic" squats perfomed down to a bench or box (as opposed to back), which is used simply as a depth-marker and trigger to reverse the lift.  Although some athletes hit the bench harder than they should (which is very bad for the spine IMO) there is little or no weight transfer onto the bench and the contact should be minimal.  

In contrast to the Box Squats described above, Bench Squats have been used extensively during certain periods of the year by throwers and other T&F athletes for decades.  They are almost always performed to a 90 degree knee angle or higher, i.e. as three-quarter or half-squats.  When below-parallel squats are called for, typically no bench is used, i.e. normal Olympic-style squats are performed.

Terminology aside, the issue of whether Box Squats are useful for throwers or not has been covered previously, with reasonable comments both for and against.  I have copied the relevant links below for convenience.

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4072&KW=Box+Squats&PN=0&TPN=1 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=407 2&KW=Box+Squats&PN=0&TPN=1

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8069&KW=Box+Squats - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=806 9&KW=Box+Squats

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8308&KW=Box+Squats - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=830 8&KW=Box+Squats

Pingleton

Thank you.