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Braemar Stone Question

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jeffloosle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffloosle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Braemar Stone Question
    Posted: 12/14/04 at 5:01am

Got a call from Frank Carl -- He is having some computer issues and asked me to post this question for clarification.

The Braemar Stone ---

Hope I get this right...

You are set for the throw -- you have your left foot against the trig and you are setting up in the power position, as you do, you raise your left foot (non-power foot for righty throwers), throw and reverse.

Question, is this an advance?

He says he has been scratched a couple of times, but most of the time the throw is counted.  I also have seen throwers do a similar type throw and have not seen a scratch called.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 5:35am
In Texas that's a scratch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seckmrl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 6:02am

As far as I know from interp of the Nasga and Saaa,Rmsa rules this would be allowed as long as the back foot remained in place..  I would say that if you really lift your front foot up and it lands infront of where it was first placed then yes it would be an advance and a sctratch... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Satchwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 6:50am
If I were judging- it would be a foul.  Too much advantage is gained by moving it.  I would allow you to step back with the right foot.  By letting the left foot leave the ground you are getting a longer push on the stone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 7:09am

Ask your judge because it is open to interpretation. The technical rule used out here is that "no approach is allowed". Advancing the drive foot prior to release is generally considered an approach. Lifting the plant foot is generally not considered an approach but it is really up to the judge (or AD).

Frankly, I think that Braemar stone should be thrown using the Braemar rules. Both feet must remain on the ground the whole time, no reverse is allowed. However, we Colonials have changed that.

Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Satchwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 7:38am

I agree with you Carlos

Satch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 7:54am

At the Scarborough Faire game Joe Lane has us do a toes to the trig NO foot movement Braemar w/ a 28lber. Very difficult to control momentum- lotsa fouls- fun change of pace though.(doesn't go very far)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 8:15am

Move your feet?  Why?  Momentum standing still?  Joe should have you stand still with the caber also, movement is overated.

If I use Braemer style at every game, can I list all my stone throws at games in the Braemer catagory on the data board?  I hear an athlete last year had a heavy stone and it was not a Braemer competition, but he did not move because it was so big of stone, he then listed his throw in the Braemer catagory.  I can do that with every stone I ever threw.  That is ok for the data board?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JWC III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 9:18am
This is a question for the ages and the simple answer is to ask the judge prior to throwing what he or she will allow.  I became a RMSA certified judge last year and that whole process was quite a fun and funny experience as my good friend Kurt Spell certified several of us who have 10 plus years and 100's of games under our belts as athletes, judges, and AD's.  What Kurt said, and my understanding is the represents the RMSA interpretation is that the front foot can come up as long as it is planted behind of where it orginally was or in the exact same spot, if it advances then it is a scratch.  The is easily accomplished by setting up with your lead foot butt up against the trig so when you raise you can drive it back into the trig without advancing it.  Another "trick" is to set up that foot against the trig and the drag or sweep it across the trig to "open up" and this is often allowed.  However, I agree with Baab, Satchwell that the Braemar needs to be accomplished from a "planted position".  But if the judge is going to allow others to do what I've described, then I follow the the axiom, "When in Rome, do as the Romans". 
Thom Van Vleck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffloosle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 10:26am

[QUOTE=Borges]Ask your judge because it is open to interpretation./QUOTE]

As usual, Carlos hit the nail on the head.  I am sure this could be debated 'til the cows come home, (whatever that means), and there would still be both sides of the issue.

Games are run by numerous A.D.'s and Judged by numerous judges.  It is what is being allowed at the particular game you are competing in that matters most.

However, that said, I would like to see one set of rules for each event World-wide.  I want World Peace too, but not sure that's possible either.

 

Now, Mike Baab, toes to the trig.  Is that both sets of toes on each foot or just one foot?  If it's both feet . . . Then Mr. Lane is a very, very devious man. 

No wonder you had lots of scratches!  And I thought some of my miscellaneous events were warped.



Edited by jeffloosle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 10:41am
Both feet toes to trig - NO heel lift or foot wiggles PERIOD - was lightened up the next year to allow heel lift only - was challenging.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valenti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 3:30pm

 I will be advancing  the Braemar stone this year,much in the same way the 56#wfh has been advanced...I will be spinning this year.

 

Dont foul me,please.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSantoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/04 at 1:47am

I have been throwing the shot for 13 years and coached for 5. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I see no real advantage to moving the front foot in a power position. I feel that the front foot should stay down and be the base that the weight transfers to. By moving the front foot you run the risk of bringing your hips across rather than up. The result being a line drive with your head down as opposed to a powerful lift.

Now I am not sure of all the specific rules, but it really does seem that they are individualized per games and judge. Maybe to insure no movement of the feet we should sit in a chair or throw from our knees!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JWC III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/04 at 4:11am

"From our knees", I don't know about that!  How 'bout from a lazy boy!  But what about the "sweep".  Would that creat an advantage?  It allows you to twist further back and before you come up you drag that lead foot, plant it, straighten it, then go up over it. 

Thom Van Vleck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angus Billy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/04 at 11:56am
When I put the open stone I use a modified Braemar style in which I lift my left (front) foot, pull it back slightly, then plant it down as I drive off the back foot. This gives me a longer put by one to two feet. So, there is an advantage to lifting the front foot. That's why I say no lift in the Braemar put.

As a SAAA and RMSA judge, here's my take. If you pick up your foot, you loose the benefit of where it was placed for the start of your throw. When you put it back down you will (probably) have pulled it backwards, even if slightly, before putting it back down rather than lifting it straight up or up and forward. This is a matter of rocking back on your right or down foot as you lift the other (it's called balance). That's an advancement toward the trig. If you put your foot against the trig and lift it but maintain contact with the face of the trig until you put it back down, then there has been no advancement. That's the way I called it at the MWC last August and that's why Frank Carl was not fouled there.

I've seen Vierra's video and all the pros scratch
without a call. I can't control that. The scratch on the weight for distance too but no one is complaining about those rules.

But, I don't judge every games so, as said above, ask the judge before you throw.
Angus Billy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote girosport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/04 at 5:10pm
Are you guys kidding me? All these anal rules about where the front foot lands , before the place it started, after, below, against the trig...and still no one has a clear answer, but you can throw the weight for height anyway you like? until this sport gets it's rules and facts together no one will take it seriously...maybe  make a breamar rule that your face must be facing oposite the direction of the throw a rule to make it a bit more challenging!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/04 at 5:13pm

Hey Larry,

Are you not creating a conundrum here? (which means: A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma)  As my career started and I was privileged to share the field with you at the end of your throwing days, I recall several instances when you threw the Breamar Stone.  Clearly you lifted your left foot off the ground, pushed into it again (and beyond its former placement), emitted large gutteral sounds, released, and promptly reversed.  Not to mention the artificial performance enhancers you used (usually referred to as knee wraps).  This would appear to be in conflict with your posted statements on this topic.  I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation should you care to share it.

God Bless You,    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Satchwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/04 at 12:46am

Easy- I was throwing not judging!!  Do what the judge allows.

Larry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plaid Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/04 at 1:56am
Excellent Response Larry. You are exactly right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSantoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/04 at 1:58am

If you move the front foot without moving the back foot you are not advancing toward the trig. The question is where to we judge advancement from...the feet or the stone? By picking up the front foot and moving it forward without the back foot you are making your base wider and in fact hurting your throw. If you use a style of picking up the front and putting it back down in the same spot and you think it helps your throw you are wrong. The extra distance is from the back foot not the front. You are tricking your body into using your right foot to push harder to get the left foot down. With a little technical training you can acheive the same effect by leeping the left down and turning the right hip hard and quick to the front and posting the weight up over the left.

 

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I believe you are correct, sir.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Satchwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/04 at 4:52am

Steven and Wayne,  I agree.  By lifting the left foot, I was trying to get the stone further back, thus a longer push.

Larry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genetic Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/04 at 2:48pm
It all depends on where you are and who your are or are not
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plaid Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/04 at 7:36am
Please expound upon your statement G.F.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/04 at 4:41pm

Well Larry,

 

I applaud your honesty and forthrightness.  Your answer is on the money.    I would also say to Genetic Freak that your statement is accurate as well, and a guy with the stature and history of a Larry "The Fork" Satchwell has earned great lengths of latitude.  May God bless us all in spite of ourselves.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genetic Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/04 at 10:20am
Games or events are inconsistent-some allow wob spin and others do not, some have sheaf and other do not, one hammer or two--and so on and on the same note judging standards or enforcement of rules vary from event to event and judge to judge and certain athletes are granted latitude or benefit of doubt based on their status or reputation either positive or negative

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/04 at 10:25am
And your point would be?
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genetic Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/04 at 2:02pm
My point is if you if you were paying attention is that I was answering someone's question as to what I based a previous comment on that the rules for the braemar stone differ from game to game (actually interpretation differs as to how they are enforced) just as the other aspects of the games differ from festival to festival--although they should not and be enforced equally and universally
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRASH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/04 at 1:46pm
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
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Everybody has a sarcastic comment to make, can't issues be discussed seriously without the sarcasm?

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