Measuring

A numerical example will illustrate why I am bringing up this point.

If a weight lands 50 feet out and 20 feet over from a center line running from and perpendicular to the trig as well as bisecting the trig,

Case (a) the distance when measured to the center of the trig is 53' 10-1/8" 

Case (b) the distance when measured to the plant foot that happens to be 10-1/4" from center of trig on the side in which the throw landed is 53' 6-3/8" 

Case (c) the distance when measured to the plant foot that happens to be 1' 7-7/8" from center of trig on the side in which the throw landed is 53' 3' 1/8

The point that I am trying to illustrate is that when measuring to the center of the trig, a thrower can increase the measured distance of the throw by throwing off to the side and that increase is not trivial. In the above two cases, the throw would be measured 4" to 7" longer than the measure to the plant foot, NOT a trivial amount.

Case (b) above is equivalent to the measuring method in which the tape is pulled through a center point of the box that is set back 2.25 feet from the trig

Case (c) is equivalent to the measuring method of pulling the tape through a center point of the box that is set back 4.5 feet

So if an AD chooses to use measuring to the center of the trig, blatant throwing to the side as well as subtle throwing to the side will increase the distance of the throw and throwers will do it. 

One can make a case that this is not only an issue with competition, but taken to an extreme, an issue of safety with throwers trying to shank throws to one side or another.

Your post has two points: (1) Why is a change needed? (2) measuring to the plant foot is easy. 

I am assuming that the reason why some are moving to measuring to the center of the trig is due to a dissatisfaction of measuring to the inside edge of the trig closest to the plant foot. 

For me, measuring to the plant foot is easy if there is no reversal of the foot, the plant foot stays relatively stationary, and the plant foot is near the trig.  Often this has not been true for my limited judging experience of which most of the time was not judging A's.   Thus, from my prospective, an element of subjectivity exists when trying to mark to the inside edge of the trig closest to the plant foot. 

Added to this are what I have heard as other justifications:
* Often contests are being decided not by a few inches but by less than an inch. 

* A slight miss placement of the tape on the trig can change the distance enough to change the results of the contests. 

This is the strongest argument for a new system:  Even if the judge was just focusing on the plant foot, he is standing at the back of the box or off to the side of the box.  Can the judge be that confident that he nailed where the plant foot is every time when there is reversals of the feet, spinning upon release to relieve some of the momentum, shuffling the feet to catch ones balance after release, and the possibility of the plant foot being planted well back from the the trig (as done by single spinners, those who fear scratching by going over the trig, and those who are not getting the full use of the box)?  Additionally, If he does nail that spot, will he mark that spot after he picks up the tape and pulls it taunt?  There is a lot of room for missing the spot which in turn can change the outcome of the contest.  This is not to say that judges cannot do this, I am saying this is a difficult and not an easy task -- a point we disagree on -- or perhaps it is easy when the throwers have good form as in the case of A's and pros which I am assuming you have had more opportunity to judge than I. 

* cynicism leads to questions of whether the judge is biased. I would like to think there is no cynicism or biased judging, but I am to old to be that foolish.

* little formal judges training.

If measuring to the center of the trig is a function of poor judging, then one can solve this by improving the judging (that is a whole different topic) OR change the measuring system OR both.

Measuring to the center of the trig removes one form of subjectivity but introduces another form in which the athlete can game or increase his measured throw by launching the implement to the side.  For me, measuring to the center of the trig rather than to the plant foot introduces a worse level of subjectivity. 

With that said, I can just accept the measuring to the inside edge of the trig closest to the plant foot and work on improving the judging OR take a step back and look at a bigger picture and ask is there another method of measuring? 

But why the bigger picture?  Better judging will probably and should costs more money (they are under paid). AD's have to fight for every stinking penny in the athletic budget and try not to make donations out of their pocket to that budget.  Do I want to spend the limited budget on better judging so that measuring to the plant foot can be used with out worry OR is there another measuring method that will allow spending the limited budget on amenities for the throwers, cutting registration fees to help with higher cost of gas, ....

Thus, the motivation of measuring by pulling the tape through the center of the box is driven by the short comings of measuring to the center of the trig, as well as measuring to the plant foot, but is also rooted in budget pressures.  I still say it is not a bad idea since it accomplishes all the goal of being objective by removing the weakness of the other two systems.  But will it fly anywhere? maybe at a games in a mid size town along the banks of the mighty Mississippi.  

additions to post:

I have great respect for Wally's opinion. He never fails to bring a legitimate idea or thought to a serious discussion on NASGA.  Additionally, I believe change for change sack is not a good thing. 

I don't think I made myself clear (again): 
I am not trying to stur the pot. 
I have been troubled by measuring as has others some of who has expressed those troubles. 
I am interested in whether others can see a downside to the idea of measuring by pulling the tape through a center point?  
Whether it would work? 
Has anybody tried it before?

Eclipse, playing the roll of Hamish wrote: What is the average width of a thrower?

I know some was thinking it, so I had to put it out there.

Another interesting item to gather info on is whether using different measuring system changes the order of finish.

"Hamish" Eclipse,

I will put up the excel file sometime today and add a link here to it.

Examples of the difficulty at measuring using the nearest point on the inside edge of the trig to the plant foot can be seen in the stone video recently put up at Mr. Vierra web site with links from this NASGA thread  

The things to watch in this video related to measuring are:

(1) where is the plant foot upon release

(2) what happens to it after release

(3) Look at what the judge is watching for and when he looks at the throws landing position. I think he was a very good judge because he resisted the temptation of watching the throw and focused on the thrower for foot faults, under control, over the trig scratches.  

(4) Note that the camera is farther back but closer to the thrower than the judge.   Ask yourself if you could accurately place the tape on the inside edge of the trig closet to the plant foot?  

FYI: I do not know how they measure down under and I am not criticising the judge.  I am using the video to illistrate the point that measuring to the plant foot is difficult and subjective.     

Just measure to the closest foot to the trig upon release of the implement.

righty hammer thrower, left leg regardless

lefty hammer thrower, left leg regardless

IMO

Center of trig is garbage, I have seen many intentionally throw on an angle to reap the "reward" of this  I would never mention names of course.   Cough Cough Dan Bourque Cough Cough.

he is a whore Dan,  That Bourque is evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hate him, I really do!

C. Smith wrote: Wow.  Im totally of the KISS method.  Measure from the center, then it's just fair for everyone.  If you are mad that someone is getting angle distance, then you have every right to use it as well.  No different then some using field slope for the caber.  (Im of the opinion for that that everyone should be made to run a line on the field, but that's a different discussion)  If crowd safety is really a concern here, just have sector lines.  But honestly i can't imagine that one area that was once safe is now no longer safe due to the type of measuring.  If that's the case, then that area wasn't safe to begin with.

+1

My personal belief is that measuring from the center is simple, and objective. If we were worried about how far the implement actually went then we would measure from the toe of the plant foot itself, not the closest point on the trig to that toe. When you measure from the center the objective is clear - try to make the implement land as far from the center of the trig as possible. Period.

As to the notion that people would 'work' the system - like they can't already by landing the left foot as far out to the left as possible while still keeping the right foot in the box (righty thrower). Get real. By the way, has anyone every seen a high level thrower doing this on a regular basis? I see beginners try it from time to time but a top A or pro? No.

Someday, as an experiment, I'd like to see someone take both measurements for an entire games at the A or pro level. I'll give odds that the final outcome in the aggregate doesn't change and I'll back that with straight money on the prospect that the first place finisher in every distance event is the same on both scoresheets.

Finally, the winged trig as widely used in Scotland (also used at Enumclaw) largely eliminates the problem of people 'working' the measurement from the center.

Silverback wrote: I breamer the stone, so I can pick my spot.  I will take advantage of this as everyone knows, I will also throw to the lowest point on the field to take advantage of that.  If you don't like it, quit moving and do the same thing.  I am just not good enought to do this with any impliment moving and I would think it true for the masses.  Most are trying not to foul and get one in.  In any case, the crowd is safe.

I agree with your points that measuring to the center of the trig is easily exploited in the Braemar Stone event and that it would be difficult to exploit in the weight for distance events.  

At risk of being a called a smart ass, I was struck by the irony of your statement: "If you don't like it, quit moving and do the same thing." This is about the same logic used by those who spin in wob... "when you get sick of losing, then you will learn to spin".  Both arguments maybe true, but ....

McSanta wrote: *  If the throw lands straight away, the measuring to the plant foot is robust in that a larger margin of error on where the tape is read will generate a small error in the measure of the throw.

Correct. This was a big time issue for me as an engineer at the end of the Cold War working on TDOA (time delay of arrival) emitter localization. Ivan was really hard to pin down accurately at endfire of the antenna array.

The key observation in HG is that the width of the trig is so small that for a straight away toss there is also very little difference between measuring to the point on the trig closest to the plant foot versus the center of the trig. For instance, if you have a 40' straight away toss the maximum difference between the two measurements is slightly more than three quarters of an inch. For a 70' straight away toss it is less than half an inch. Frankly there is more error in tape tension and placement of the other end of the tape on the point of impact.

McSanta wrote: * I think rounding to 1/2 inch or 1 inch is a better idea than 1/4 inch with this measuring system.

No rounding, ever. Truncation. You should never credit a thrower with a distance greater than that actually measured. My personal opinion is that the best system is to measure to the lowest whole inch. The way I see it, measuring to the 1/4 inch is just a way to introduce random tie breaking that would be better handled by looking at second best throws.

I started this thread in the hopes of gathering information to build a case against measuring to the center of the trig.   I, however, did not like the alternative of measuring to the plant foot.  Thus, the idea of pulling the tape through the center of the box was resurrected from the recesses of the back of my mind (not sure who planted that thought there). 

In the end,  I find myself less critical of measuring to the plant foot when rounded down (truncating) to the 1 inch mark.  I also see the positives of measuring to the center of the trig for the weights throws & open stone. As Mr Borges rightfully points out that the difference between the two systems would probably not change the order of the finish (in the weight throws?).  I feel strongly that center of the trig system should not be used for Braemar Stone and perhaps the hammer throw in order to eliminate the abuse of the measuring system.

For what it is worth, the following is bullet point of measuring systems that I will be using to help me remember why I am using one measuring system over another.

Measuring to the inside edge of the trig closes to the Plant Foot  
(a.k.a. measuring to the plant foot)

• Maximizes the measured distance.
• Athlete can only manipulated results by throwing farther.
• Requires consistent marking of plant foot by Judge.
  • A narrower margin of error exists for shorter distance throws.
  • A narrower margin of error exists for throws off to the side.
  • A wider margin of error for longer distance throws.
  • A wider margin of error for straight out throws.
  • Increasing the measurement unit which is rounded down to, widens the margin of error at the trig. A measurement unit of ¼ inch makes it unduly difficult for the judges to make the proper mark for some throws. 
• There may still be concern about judging bias since the mark is a judgment call.  With truncating (rounding down), at times the placement of the tape within the margin of error can lead to +/- one unit of measurement.

Measuring to the Center of Trig

• Maximizes the measured from Center of Trig.
• Athlete can manipulate results by throwing to the side.
  • Braemar and Hammer may be the only events that athletes will be consistently successful in manipulating the results.
  • Some have gone to center of stance or plant foot for these two events to eliminate manipulation.
• Since the mark to place the tape is known, there are no judging errors when placing the tape on the trig to read measurement.

• Throws hurt by changing measuring from Plant Foot to Center of Trig:

  • Throws where the implement is launched from one side of the box and lands in the field on the opposite side of the center line (center line is perpendicular to and bisects the trig).
  • Throws helped by changing measuring from Plant Foot to Center of Trig:
  • Throws in which the plant foot is on the same side of the center line that the implement lands.

Measuring by pulling the tape through the Center of Box

• Maximizes the measured from the center of the box.
  • The measurement from the center of box is not the measure the athlete receives.
• Athletes can only manipulate results by throwing farther.
• Since the mark to place the tape is known, there are no judging errors when placing the tape on the trig to read measurement.

• Throws hurt by changing measuring from Plant Foot to Center of the Box:

  • Throws in which the plant foot is on one side of the box and the implements on the opposite side of the center line. (Same as center of trig)
  • Throws where the implement lands on the same side of the box as the plant foot and the plant foot is inside of the tape when it is stretched from the landing mark to the center of the box. Inside of the tape means the left (right) side when the implement lands on the right (left) side of the center line. 

• Throws helped by changing measuring from Plant Foot to Center of the Box:

  • Throws where the plant foot lies on the right side of the tape when it is stretched from landing mark through the center of the box AND the implement lands to the right of the center of the box.
  • Throws where the plant foot lies on the left side of the tape when it is stretched from the landing mark through the center of the box AND the implement lands to the left of the center of the box.  
    

• Throws hurt by changing measuring from the Center of the Trig to the Center of the Box:

  • Throws that do not land on the center line.

• Throws hurt by changing measuring from the Center of the Trig to the Center of the Box:

  • NONE – the methods produce the same distance if the throw lands straight out and measuring to the center of the box will produce shorter and shorter distances as the throws land farther and farther to the side.