Braemar Technique

Thank you for posting that....now a question or two:

I throw with a guy (Bill Leffler) who is a pretty good putter.  He did masters track and field for years and has been throwing shot for 35 years on a fairly consistent basis.  He will throw the open stone with a glide or spin and then sit back and uncork one from the stand just as far or within a foot or two.  My questions:

1. How much does the glide add to a throw? 

2. If you don't have all the background in putting, would it be wise to just get good at the power position (because I'm thinking if Bill has been throwing for that long and can throw from the stand almost as far as gliding or spinning there's no hope for me to master it at this point).

3.  My strategy has been to learn the standing throw and when I feel like I have it down (and I am FINALLY getting that feeling) I am going to start trying to glide....is that a bad move to wait until that point to start gliding?  Thanks, Thom

Dang, the secrets out.  Now everybody will grow a beard, take their shirts off, and wear tight shorts to throw the stone

JWC:

Peter pretty much hit it all. The one thing I would add: If the guy is not explosive, then there won't be that much of a difference. Team mate of mine could throw the 14lbs shot 51, 16lbs 50, and the 18lbs 48-49, all because he relied on power, but not very explosive at all.  I was the oppisite and varied about 4 feet between each weight.  If your friend is not explosive, it doesn't matter which way he throws it, it will end up about the same

Skullsplitter wrote:   Maybe also being 6'7" tall and wired like a cat is the secret.

Well, there is no doubt that these attributes significantly contribute to his 20m+ standing throw, but everyone will throw farther if they copy his technique, even if only a very few can remotely approach his distance.

BTW, he is actually 6'8" tall, and can squat 606 lbs. for a set of six, and also performs depth jumps from 1 meter with 385 lbs.

He just won the World Athletics Final with a throw of 20.88m to go with his Olympic Gold.  Cantwell was 2nd again (with 20.73m).  It is interesting that in both the men's shot and discus, the winners and runners up were the same as at the Olympics.

JWC III wrote:   1. How much does the glide add to a throw?

I wanted to add something to my comments above on this point. 

As I mentioned, the amount the full technique adds to one's standing throw depends on several factors, but if one has a very good stand and one's full technique is not as good for any reason (including injuries, relative lack of athleticism/mobility, etc.) one's full throw might not be ANY farther than one's stand.  This can largely be explained by the fact that an effective standing throw does not simply utilize the power position achieved during a full throw, even with the glide, but goes beyond this position in several ways, and in ways that are more easily and more consistantly achieved than the additional movements involved in the full throw. 

So, (i) one has a much better chance of hitting a good power position in the standing throw, and (ii) the movements that precede the power position, while more limited than those in the full throw, are generally transferred effectively into the throw, which is often not the case in the full throw.

The best example of this is probably the great Udo Beyer later in his career.  My former coach was at the 1988 Olympics and said Beyer threw about 21.40m from a stand during the warmup, which is the farthest standing throw he has ever seen or heard about.  In the competition itself, Beyer threw exactly 21.40m using a full glide, no further at all than he achieved from a stand. 

Ummmmmmmmmmm tepid water, ummmmmmmmmmm tepid water.

I refer you to the photo from the '08 MWC on the MWC website that has me standing between Myles and Brett Milton. I look like a smurf between those two, and I'm 6'3" and 245# ish. Myles has a major helping of both huge and humble going on there.

Myles, by the way, I've been working hard on the block in the sheaf like you showed me. Unfortunately, although I'm going higher sometimes, my accuracy has really gone south. I'm going to try your idea of aiming at a light pole.

I wish all of you masters a great weekend at Loon. I'd love to be there to see this one. 

Thanks for all the feedback, I am also beginning to understand why sometimes there will be someone that wins the Braemar by a good margin only to be trounced in the open stone by a good spinner or glider.  I think I am more of a "power" thrower (read: not explosive or athletic) as it seems the heavier the implement to relatively better I do. 

Now, ANOTHER question. 

I think we are all "blessed" or "Cursed" with certain types of genetics.  Athlete "A" might be better suited to throw the 28lb weight, athlete B the 42, and Athlete C the 56.  I am relatively better at some weights than others.  My question is, do you buy this or do you think a good athlete will adapt to the situation.  In other words, how much elaticity do we have to adapt. 

Mr. Ingleton, I was 38 when I threw at my first local Colorado highland games when I was assisting other local novice Colorado highlanders to improve on their stones throws and weights for distance who were training at the same High School field where I coach some of my youth throwers in T&F. I had the pleasure of competing with Karl Dodge, Will Barron, Matt Rauzi, Mike Gaenzle, Mark Buchanan, Dana Axelson, Sam McNeil and Mark Daniels. It was fun and a great diversion from track and field. I eventually stopped because I had to focus on one or the other in 2003 while training for a national championships in T&F and my true love has always been throwing the shot put and discus and I'm still at it at 46 years of age. About myself and training...I'm short legged for my height of 6' 1", (in-seam on jeans 30"-32") but have a long torso and arms (like someone 6' 3"-6' 4"). My max lifts in the deep back squat, ( no belt, body suit, or knee wraps, just me and a spotter) is 355 lbs. The other power leg exersice I do is the Zercher squat and my max there is 265 lbs. ( again, no belt, suits, or wraps and butt to the floor deep...you know what I mean.) The reason I believe my leg power is not as strong as a typical power athlete is because of my longer torso and shorter legs, the legs have it easy but any forward compensation or lean in any of those lifts can spell disaster because of the bar being ahead of my hips and knees. It still  corralates to power in my shot put, mainly because my core is worked to the maximum keeping my form correct and my legs and hips are worked hard, especially in the Zercher squat because of the hip drive used to complete the lift which are very important to the glide shot putter. I also do hang cleans with 205 lbs. for doubles, 5-6 sets before doing squats. ( almost like a stiff legged deadlift with knee's bent and bar down to mid-upper shin, but I use only leg drive and hip drive to get bar to shoulders using minimal arm pull.) My upper body is completly different in strength numbers. My wide grip bench max (again... all lifts are without wraps, tape, body suit ect. using strict form.) is 355 lbs. My close grip bench max (hands 8-10 inches apart) max is 325 lbs.  My seated military press max using olympic bar and weights seated on a bench is between 245-250 lbs. I work my triceps hard doing tricep pushdown ( or you may call them extentions?)  and have regularly done 120-130 lbs for 8 reps using the lat bar on the lat machine, pushing down bar with hands close together from collar bone to crotch area with elbows tight to my side like a hinge to a door and good form. I work my hand and grip strength hard as well doing dumbell wrist roll ups with 60-65lbs. for 6-10 reps (seated on side of a bench with legs apart and holding the dumbell in palm of one hand in between both legs, with wrist on top of thigh, letting dumbell roll down to finger tips, then roll back up using fingers and wrist.) I also do calve raises with olympic bar and feet flat on floor with up to 350 lbs for 6-10 reps. I do basic ab work after training, usually one set of 20 -30 reps of high knees, knees bent sit ups, leg raises or kicks and trunk twists. I am a true believer that the extremities like the fingers, hands, wrists , feet and calve muscles need good work to not create a weak link in the kinetic chain of energy of a throw that goes from the ground, up the feet, legs, core, arms and finally out the hand or hands. My lifting principles are very close to Mr. Louis Simmons where on my major lift such as benches and squats I warm up for two sets very light (around 30-35 % of max for 8-10 reps), then start at around 50%, working to 65% of my max for 6 sets of 4 explosive reps, varying my grip or stance from close, medium and wide (Example for my bench press- 185 lbs. close/ 195 lbs. medium/ 205lbs. wide/ 215 lbs. close/ 225lbs. medium/ 235 lbs. wide) then I do 4-5 sets for 2 reps with a medium grip or stance, up to 90% of my max.(Example for my bench press-275 lbs. medium/ 295 lbs. medium/  305 lbs. medium/ 315 lbs. medium). I feel I get an explosive workout as well as my body feeling it's still strong. I only do benches and squats once every 4-6 days depending on how my muscles and joints feel for proper recovery. To change things up every 4 weeks or so for only a couple of workouts, instead of presses or benches, I'll do push ups off of the floor with my feet propped on the second step of the stairs with a 50lb. plate in a back pack that I wear while doing the push ups. I'll do 4-5 sets of 8-12 exposive reps. For legs, I'll run my up my 14 step stair case, holding the 50 lb. plate with my hands, in front of my torso. I'll run for 7 or 8 passes and after those, do light snatches for explosiveness. I also believe in throwing lighter weighted implements at different times during training, especially in periods when no gains in distance are being made at pratice, that are no more than 10% lighter than weight used in competition for training to improve speed/power/distance and to not interfere with timing when actually using competitive weight. Thanks for bearing with me here and I hope this information helps someone. Remember... each human body has its own unique gifts and set backs. It's how smart we train it and use ideas from all types of workouts to fit us and our circumstances to throw further. Take care and please visit my T&F throwers web site at www.geezerjock.com/gyrosport if you like. Take care and throw far... Milton Girouard