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Cleans: Hang vs Floor - Poliquin Article |
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Kilted Lancer
Groupie Joined: 4/07/11 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 140 |
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Posted: 4/11/12 at 12:37pm |
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Interesting, especially to a guy who almost always cleans from the hang during season.
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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Meh.
The problem with studies like this is that they consider stuff as a single unit, compared to another single unit as opposed to one single portion of a much greater whole. And they don't even consider, in this case, that you need to get the bar to your waist beforehand anyway. So if you're deadlifting it off the floor, you're going to get all the benefits of the first part of the power clean anyway because, guess what, it's just a deadlift to mid thigh anyway.
Do deadlifts and do your olifting shit from the hang. Simpler, faster, better mechanics and less learning curve.
Gurus do too much mental masturbation sometimes.
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Eclipse
Senior Member Joined: 5/04/05 Location: Ethiopia Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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Kilted Lancer
Groupie Joined: 4/07/11 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 140 |
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Couple years ago I decided to all my O-lifts from the floor. Resulted in more injuries and less weight being pulled. Granted it's because I'm technically a disaster from the floor, but without access to a good coach, I never though it to be worth the risk.
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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DingDingDing! We have a winner.
I love the olifts. I love olifting. I love doing the lifts. I'll watch it all day long.
I dropped them almost entirely outside of high pulls because the "benefits vs damage" curve wasn't plotting in the quadrant I needed it to.
As with every single exercise in your program, you should be putting the olifts under the microscope and asking yourself "Is this helping me overall or should I modify/drop/train this differently?"
The full olifts are awesome for lots of stuff. But so are a lot of other things with a lot less learning curve and damage potential.
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Sean Betz
Postaholic World Champ - 08 Joined: 9/09/04 Status: Offline Points: 1036 |
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I think this is right on. I think cleans and snatches from the floor are good as well but you will always be limited by what you can pull from the power position(hang). The highland games is a unique sport where you have many pulling events that are relational to a hang type movement. I do like Poliquin's articles. I usually agree with about 95% of what he says. He also has an article about doing plyometric type olympic lifts helping your olympic lifts, which are basically hang snatches and cleans from below the knee.
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Pingleton
Postaholic Highland Games' virtually straight legs Joined: 11/28/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
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The problem with the article is that it contains a lot of "often"s and "tend to"s. Another issue is that some of the comments regarding ROM are not that relevant if one is doing other exercises, particularly full squats (front or back) and/or deadlift variations from the floor.
My opinion is that both Power Cleans and Hang Cleans are very beneficial movements, but the fact is Hang Cleans are easier to learn and perform properly, but are also more often abused in terms of proper technique in order to maximize the weight lifted at any cost. The issue seen in Power Cleans tend to involve a physical inability to get into a proper starting postion (lack of mobility/flexibility) and hold this over the course of the first pull, and simple lack of proper technique - particularly in the transition from from first pull to the second pull. The bottom line is that (1) you should not go heavy at all on movements you are not capable of performing correctly, either because of a lack of flexibility or a lack of technique, and (2) you should never sacrifice proper (i.e. safe and effective) technique in an attempt to lift more weight. More people will be able to do Hang Cleans properly and be able to learn the proper technique more easily. This is even more true when considering snatches. |
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
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Pingleton
Postaholic Highland Games' virtually straight legs Joined: 11/28/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
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I mostly agree with this, particularly the last paragraph, but I wanted to add one thought for consideration: if you can do deadlifts from the floor with good form (which many people cannot for reasons noted previously), you should be able to perform the first pull of a Power Clean, since that is just a relatively light deadlift. You might still have technical issues, particularly at some point in the transition from the first to the second pull, but you should be physically able to get into the proper positions. My point is not that everyone should be doing Power Cleans, but rather that not everyone should be doing straight-bar deadlifts from the floor. Lots of people would benefit from doing them either with a Hex Bar or else off of 2"-6" of mats that allow them to start from the proper position. Comments? |
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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I'm missing why someone couldn't get into a proper deadlift position with just a bar?
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Pingleton
Postaholic Highland Games' virtually straight legs Joined: 11/28/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
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Specific flexibility/mobility issues. I have seen it numerous times, although rarely with young and athletic individuals. This is the same reason why some people cannot get into a proper squat deep squat position, which is actually quite common for those with very long legs and a short torso. I am not saying such flexibility issues cannot be addressed, just that some people have them and, if they do, those people should not do deadlifts directly from the floor or squats below the point where they can maintain a proper position. Often these are not the same people by the way.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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I can see that, although if that was the case my concern would be getting that person flexible/mobile enough to actually do the exercises correctly, as opposed to just putting a band-aid over a big problem by modifying lifts.
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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Seriously. If your issue is a lack of flexibility picking a bar up off the floor properly, try golf. Or piping.
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CHAD
Postaholic Dangerously Anabolic Joined: 2/04/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2142 |
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Wow. This went from from "Rocky Balboa" to "Sit and Be Fit" in record time. Something of a PR, imo. Good work, good work.
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...Josh
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Soul Eater
Senior Member Joined: 7/31/08 Location: Papua New Guinea Status: Offline Points: 950 |
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from the floor is always better, unless you have a facility that won't allow you to do Olympic movements. With the invention of crossfit more small places are poppining up that you can do these movments, however they won't allow you to do a strictly oly program. Many Gyms won't allow the Dropping of the bar after a heavy set(s) & rep(s). Dropping is better than catching the bar, I don't care who you are it will beat you up more on the way down. I go from the floor but I can't drop the weight so it changes a few things for me such as weight sets and reps. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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+1. Do you want to be an Olympic lifter or a great thrower? To Quote Dan John 'What are your goals'.
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CHAD
Postaholic Dangerously Anabolic Joined: 2/04/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2142 |
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Can we get a 1 season moratorium on quoting Dan John?
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...Josh
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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I don't know can you? Tell you what 1 year on no more Dan John Quotes if you can not bitch or whine about a post for a year.
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matt
Groupie World Champ - '99 -'03 Joined: 9/06/04 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 109 |
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I always went from the hang below the knee i don,t know of any throwing position where your bum is that low.Just seems like extra work
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Thanks Matt!
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LJRed
Groupie Joined: 4/14/14 Location: Wilmington,Illi Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Hang Cleans are good, if you bring
the bar to hang position then pause and proceed. I've watched kids at the local high school bring the up to hang, then back to floor? They've lost all benefit! Try pulling the bar until the plates are about to break the floor, then pause and lift! |
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Larry J Readman
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