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Why have Pro level games?

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Speed Racer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speed Racer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 12:42pm

It doesn't take a genius to see that the "Pros" are clearly the weak link of the sport.

This isn't the NBA, NFL, or MLB. They bring nothing to the sport except a wallet and
a huge diva ego. Not all, but most. The sport and this board is turning quite comical.
Lots of drama for a teeny, tiny sport.
 
Wa What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 12:45pm
Solid first post.  Not really worthy of making a troll account for it, but still solid.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vonguinness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 3:19pm
spectators do take notice of folks return athletes. a little old lady asked me once if i was Dave Barron, its still the highlight of my throwing career.

i've loved throwing in flights where ams, mix with pros. im into that. i also started a games that has zero spectators and im doing my finest to support a PRO class as soon as possible. so im a obviously a fanboy and will always try to support anything related to the sport. 

with all of that being said, the vast majority, almost all spectators have zero clue. there are certainly anomalies, but the crowd will always want to see a caber turned and will watch height events because they are measurable to their eye and the limited amount of attention they are actually paying, they dont care what the dudes name is that does it though.

if i were to host games from a pure business point, i would absolutely do my finest to recruit as many top AMs as possible....then spend $1000 on a the best announcer possible. i just saved $600 (at least) and he(she) would make sure that the crowd is way pumped to see AM guy go 50' in the ostone....or whatever. cause no one in that crowd knows that PROs go 55'.......or that there even is a PRO class in most cases. no one out there knows if an athlete is hitting the right positions or not. what they do know is they can absolutely take photos or videos, post that on Instagram or the BlueWebsite with hashtags about dudes and chicks in skirts and they're happy. 

luckily i happily lose money on my own games every year and i'm happy to do so, because i feel its good for the sport.

these are mostly points, but my honest opinion of what i've learned after 5 years.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Speed Racer Speed Racer wrote:

It doesn't take a genius to see that the "Pros" are clearly the weak link of the sport.

This isn't the NBA, NFL, or MLB. They bring nothing to the sport except a wallet and
a huge diva ego. Not all, but most. The sport and this board is turning quite comical.
Lots of drama for a teeny, tiny sport.
 

LOL 

Originally posted by vonguinness vonguinness wrote:

 
luckily i happily lose money on my own games every year and i'm happy to do so, because i feel its good for the sport.

these are mostly points, but my honest opinion of what i've learned after 5 years.

And I am very appreciative of it every year, my man. 
Jeff Kaste



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 4:04pm
In an ideal world I would love to have the money to stage a Highland Games featuring the World's top ten Highland Games Heavies.

What may surprise some folk is that I would not stage this event at a Highland Games.

I had the pleasure of seeing a Basque Stone Lifting Event in a sold out 9000 capacity Bull Ring near Pamplona.

I am convinced that the atmosphere in there on that day would have resulted in Personal Records galore.

Meanwhile back in the real world - I can only dream.

A.D.Inverness 1999-present; MWC2006, World Championships 2007, MWC2009 and MWC2014. Organiser of Guinness World Record for Caber Tossing. Scottish Masters International Hall of Fame Inductee 2014.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Sim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 6:13pm
Thanks for all the great responses, I have a lot clearer idea of how to market & build the Pro class for our games/fairs here in Utah.

We will start with announcing & embracing that everyone needs to help build the entertainment value if interested in growing our sport/product. As fan base & social recognition builds it will be easier to promote the "next level" of entertainment. We just need to do so carefully so as not to detract from our Am competitors.

Simply put, organize & build our market share until they expect nothing less than the highest level of entertainment.

Embracing the "entertainment reality" has been the big break through for me & I'm looking forward to spreading this ideology to our throwers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/14 at 11:49pm
I have some questions you might have thought of or maybe not, but they will come up at some point. 
?1. how many pro's in Utah?
?2. How many Pro's do you want to come?
?3. How many pro's within 500 miles?
?4. How expensive are the Hotels close to your games, or will you provide Rooms?
?5. What is the payout for 6th place? will it equal plane fare and hotel costs if they are not provided? 
the reason why I ask these questions because these are things I have heard come up over the years. I kinda of scoped it to Utah, but they could be assumed anywhere. Don't get me wrong I think announcers and ROI are all important But when asking for money from a committee they are going to want to know everything and what it's being spent on, they don't want to go "over budget".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 7:07am
Originally posted by Soul Eater Soul Eater wrote:

?5. What is the payout for 6th place? will it equal plane fare and hotel costs if they are not provided? 


You would think this would be important, but I see Pro's going to games and coming out of it in the red. 

I don't understand it, but it happens...a lot. 

After hearing the payouts, I would almost guarantee it happened last weekend in PHX to several athletes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 8:19am
Me and my family house, shuttle and feed all the athletes to cut down on their expenses. Even if you place last here you would be able to cover air fair and a little extra. No big jumps in payout between first and last. Hate when games screw the last few spots. It's not needed. Craig is correct about Phoenix. Love that games, but the last few spots eat it big time. Rick Morris does a great job in Boise on a small budget. No pro goes home with a hit on the wallet. Again, no huge jumps between each spot in the overall. Killing the guy in last place is just not needed IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Ryan Stewart Ryan Stewart wrote:

Me and my family house, shuttle and feed all the athletes to cut down on their expenses. Even if you place last here you would be able to cover air fair and a little extra. No big jumps in payout between first and last. Hate when games screw the last few spots. It's not needed. Craig is correct about Phoenix. Love that games, but the last few spots eat it big time. Rick Morris does a great job in Boise on a small budget. No pro goes home with a hit on the wallet. Again, no huge jumps between each spot in the overall. Killing the guy in last place is just not needed IMO.

Looks like I should go to Boise. All the west coast games seem so fun but flying is so pricey! 

I think this mentality with pros is definitely the way to go (if possible). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Ryan Stewart Ryan Stewart wrote:

Hate when games screw the last few spots. It's not needed. Craig is correct about Phoenix. Love that games, but the last few spots eat it big time.
 
+1
 
Even so, 1st was $550 which included travel. If someone came from 2000+ miles away and paid their own hotel they would barely break even with 1st place, let alone 6th or 7th. It's not Seckman's fault (the AD who does a great job putting it all together), it's whoever sets the Pro budget. I'll always go because it's my home games. Phoenix had a much larger turnout than usual this year. I'm hoping they see this and can raise their budget but a lof of games just operate with the model that a $1500 pot will suffice for 6-8 pros. This is the very reason why Tucon is discontinuing Pros.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Ryan Stewart Ryan Stewart wrote:

Again, no huge jumps between each spot in the overall. Killing the guy in last place is just not needed IMO.


10000000000000000000% this. 

Flat payout structures are so much better than graduated ones imo.  Everyone out there is throwing as hard as they can, and no one in the pro class should have to eat money on a game.  Kinda negates the 'pro' if you do. 

I'm honestly surprised that the athletes go to the games where they lose money, so you can't really blame the games when the guys are still willing to go. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rob meulenberg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 10:11am
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

I'm honestly surprised that the athletes go to the games where they lose money, so you can't really blame the games when the guys are still willing to go. 

Well, I obviously cannot speak in terms of HG pros, but when I was competing actively as a pro in strongman, I routinely lost money.  American shows hardly ever give you any travel money.  In fact, at the Olympia in 2011 was the only time I was provided a free hotel room.  Pay scales are always graduated, so you are always taking a risk of getting NOTHING going to a show. 

Contrast that to when I got to compete in one of Hugo Girard's contests in 2010.  Hotel and all meals included, and I made some decent money without placing near the top.

One reason I allowed myself to lose money on contests was to try to get my name out there and eventually gain invites to larger International contests.  As it turns out, I was never really good enough to get there, but that was my thought process behind it.  Again, not sure if it is even relevant in HG.

One obvious difference is that there are A LOT of Pro contests in HG domestically.  For strongman in the US, we have like 1-2 a year.  So you have to get those other (international) invites to even be able to routinely compete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steve Conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 10:48am
Ryan, using your games in Utah is not really the same as somewhere else. In effect, you're hosting some of your FRIENDS at your house, most AD's don't have that relationship with the pro's or the desire to pay out of their own pockets for the opportunity to have pro's at their games. Many games have limited budgets and need to use the money for the greater good, as in providing the opportunity for a number of am's (many local) to compete at a games. Am's almost always have to pay out of their own pockets and they provide a tremendous amount of entertainment as well as bringing a number of spectators through the gate. Will 5-7 pro's give that same return? Pro's should never lose money? It is a competition, why would there have to be that gaurantee in place? Paying a flat fee to have 5 pro's show up and have a friendly contest among themselves is an interesting prospect; IMO, then it's clearly just hiring entertainment and not an athletic competition. Using the upcoming Sacramento Games as an example, no travel, no hotel, if I paid only 5 pro's $900-500 that's $3,500. We don't have any local pro's and I live 90 minutes away and don't really want 5 guys crashing at my house (no offense intended). Even at that, the guy getting last and $500 will probably break even at best...that's his choice to make. As a new pro you have to be willing to make that sacrifice in order to prove your value and move up the ranks. Just because you declare yourself a pro doesn't mean that you'll get invites...you have to throw further than the top am's and be entertaining. If I pay a pro to compete at one of my games and he can't beat some of my am's or he's a pain in the a$$ or if he doesn't make any effort to connect to the crowd...he's probably not getting another invite. Many times the women, masters or the novices are more entertaining. You can also throw pipe bands or even sheepdogs into that mix as well. It's all about "the bang for the buck"...sorry boys but you're not the whole show.
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Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 10:49am
As a new Pro beggers cant be choosers at times. Getting enough invites can be tough, and if you are aspiring to go to larger competitions with higher payouts, you need to get scores in the database. At least Phoenix ran all 9 events(which is attractive). Kasson took 3rd and probably broke even or lost money, but he put himself in great position to get invites and make some better money down the road. Just a thought
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 11:25am
'As a new pro you have to be willing to make that sacrifice in order to prove your value and move up the ranks. Just because you declare yourself a pro doesn't mean that you'll get invites...you have to throw further than the top am's and be entertaining. If I pay a pro to compete at one of my games and he can't beat some of my am's or he's a pain in the a$$ or if he doesn't make any effort to connect to the crowd...he's probably not getting another invite."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 12:05pm
Utah is a perfect example Steve. It's not my house. Look at it like a host family. Like Alaska. Again, another games that gets it and is growing. We are not looking for handouts. Just saying this 5, 4,3,2,1 breakdown kills guys. I payed my dues and ate money my first two years. Just saying that having a big payout for #1 guy and making #7-12 guy eat shit makes no sense. Not saying pay each guy equal.

Your saying it's ok to hire pipers and dogs for entertainment but not Pros?? I hope I read that wrong.

Who's house are you staying at Duncan??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 12:16pm
I don't get where this pros are the evil villain stuff comes from. 99% of us are great guys. Don't know if it is one that spoiled it or not. ALL the Pros I know would give the shirt of their back for the AMs and ADs and do. I do everything I can to give back to the sport I love. If I can help make it easier for you guys going pro I will. You shouldn't have to put your family through hard times so you can be a pro. Jake, Matt and Mckim are an exception to the rule. They came in making money. Most of us are journey men and always will be. Does not mean we train any less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 12:56pm

You know what I mean Stewart.  I'm staying at Casa de Squatch, and even if I was a Pro and had a hotel I'd STILL want to stay there because we're crew; and that isn't going to change even though you think Greedo fired first.

Which, as everyone knows, is incorrect.
 
I quoted Steve because it is my SINCERE hope more of the Ams who are thinking about making the jump look at what Steve is saying and do the right thing by their fellow Athletes, no matter their ability or gender, the AD's, the fans, and most importantly, themselves.  There are some real lessons in this thread...real wisdom...from fellas like you and Steve, who see the same issues from different ends.
 
I am grateful so much of this is finally being aired out so those of us who want more from this Sport can better plan our work and work our plan.  Success at your level Ryan, which I aspire to every single morning when I'm out running or doing hammer winds, is not just about distance. 
 
Really, how could it be? 
 
What folks need to know...what they must know...is distance alone guarantees nothing.  By that same token. the ability to interact with a crowd guarantees nothing.  There is a harmony between those two that the best Highland Games Athletes have found, and that is why we remember their names; that's certainly why the crowd does. 
 
Find that balance between athleticism and showmanship, which are not mutually exclusive, and you'll never come up short at the end of the day.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 1:01pm
Greedo is an asshole a deserved to get blasted You know I love ya.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nathan Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Ryan Stewart Ryan Stewart wrote:

Greedo is an asshole a deserved to get blasted You know I love ya.


The REAL issue is not who shot first, nor the quality go Greedo's character. The problem was Hans Solo giving the bartender a measly 100 Wupiupi to cover the clean up mess.

We all know that was at least a 500 Wupiupi job. At least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 1:30pm
Even without the barrel-sight, those DL-44 heavy blaster pistols sure do make a mess don't they?
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Wow I never thought I would feel guilty about being paid as an athlete to perform well. I've been watching this sport since I was 8 years old. I've seen MANY past/present Pro's compete and everytime I watched or got the chance to help out on the field when they were throwing it was like a dream come true. There is a completely different atmosphere on the field. To say that the Pro's bring nothing to the field is rediculous. As a kid the Pros gave me something to shoot for. As an Am they gave me something to learn from. And now they give me a challenge to compete against. Since I've turned Pro I still stand my own cabers, shag weights here and there and I've even given my prize money right back to the games that gave it to me to help them off the ground.
 
To make a pro feel guilty about taking some prize money, in my opinion, defeats the purpose of calling them a pro. This sport has come extremly far in regards to athletic talent. I know the work that these pros put in because I do the same every day. Not one day goes by where I'm not thinking about how I can better myself as an athlete to throw far and to put on a good show for the people that are going to pay $20 bucks to come and watch.
 
I have big respect for the amatuer class but I have A LOT of respect for the Professionals because of the work that goes into what they achieve. If you feel as an AD that someone who dusts off thier throwing BOOTS the night before the games is going to be more entertaining then by all means invite them, but don't make the people who give this sport 100% feel guilty about recieving rewards for doing well. If you don't want them don't invite them.
 
Just my opinion. OH and BTW Han Shot first. :D I think our rematch is going to happen this year Dunc!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 1:56pm

I'm your huckleberry Josh...provided there are no hammers. 

At all.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 2:09pm
Actually, I'm curious about Craig's statement that no pro should be in the red. Isn't going to that level more of an OPPORTUNITY to make some money while doing something you enjoy, not a guarantee?
 
As much as everyone loves to throw around the term "pro" around here, HG itself is NOT a professional sport the way most people would label a sport a "professional". You don't get PAID to train for it, eat for it, etc. Does anyone "pro" NOT have a real job?
 
The way I see it, it's on the ATHLETE to keep what they kill. Game choice, marks, relationship with games directors, people, peers. The ADs are providing what they can, with MANY masters to serve. With some games, that becomes a ton. And they give that to the athletes in the vast majority of cases. With others, heavies are a small section, tossed off in the corner so they don't hurt anyone other than themselves.
 
Gord Walsh, a prince of a man for any fortunate enough to have dealt with previously, once told me that he hated guaranteed payout because he saw what it did in a lot of cases. Local guys who wouldn't train, wouldn't put in the work, wouldn't extend themselves at all, would creep out of the beer tents come game day because they knew there were slots and some money to be made.
Obviously that's an extreme case but that doesn't make it invalid.
 
That being said, when he started ADing games that had the money, the payout might not have always been top notch, but they had hotel rooms, food, transportation and flight. ADs do what they can with what they have.
 
Athletes should do the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 2:25pm
Just for clarification-

Re: opportunity vs. guarantee - You are absolutely right Sean.  That is my opinion, and I stick by it.  If guys are ok losing money, I don't have an issue with that.  They don't pay my bills anyway Wink 

I certainly don't expect festivals to over-extend themselves to ensure that someone gets paid.  We're all capable of making our own choices. 

Re:  flat payouts and shitty local throwers - I'm in no way saying the invite system should be ditched, and would expect AD's not to invite folks that would just phone it in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Sim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 2:29pm
I can see Conway's pov w/ regard to Am's turning out.

As far as paychecks for entertainment, every Professional entertainer should be paid an appearance fee according to demand for their services( a top 5 Pro should expect to receive more than a top 20 Pro). Other than that why not reward for Records? Field Record gets X, National gets Y, and World gets Z? And/Or individual event bonuses for placing? I of course mean on top of appearance fee. I now Wally/Enumclaw operate in a similar fashion.

We currently only have 1 Pro in Utah & despite the ambitions of a few Am's that isn't going to change anytime soon. Barring some of the local strongman catching the throwing bug I would have to import talent. Until UHA runs a large festival, like our Utah Scot Fest, our best opportunity will be the Fair & UHA Championship games.

So lets look at it this way...

Mock proposal to include a Pro Division at either of UHA's high profile events( based upon ability to advertise effectively to a large market) in the Salt Lake valley.

$1200 for 4 pro's, paid out equally at $300 each
Event placing aggregate of $30/20/10
Overall placing aggregate of $50/25/10
Lodging & transportation included

All told we could come at under 2k BUT would any Pro be willing to attend?

I can see allocating funds to this purpose understanding that as UHA's entertainment product improves our returns will increase. I can perpetuate the advertising ability to sponsors. We do still have a few things in our backyard to clean up but the above proposal will be a reality very soon.

Would any of you Pro's be interested?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 2:32pm
I don't figure that's much of a problem in the US system.
 
The Scots "local" payout system I think does this to some extent. Gord's experience was with some of the maritimes games 15+ years ago. It just stuck with me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/14 at 2:48pm
This might be getting a little off-topic but I actually like our (Canadian) 'Open' class system. Now granted, this is a system born out of the fact that, because we have 1/10th the US's population, we have a corresponding 1/10th (or less!) of the HG athletes. As such, we simply don't have the population to support "Am C, Am B, Am A, Super A, Pro, Am B Women, Am Women, Pro Women, Masters, Masters 40-49, Masters Women, etc etc etc". So we have, in general, 4 classes: Open, Am, Masters, Women.
 
Now, because of this our 'Open' class ranges a bit from honest to goodness pros (Hadley, Doherty, Johnston, Young, etc) to guys that would be considered 'Ok' Am A's. Speaking personally, I have no illusions about my abilities but I know in the database I show up in 3 different classes, depending on who's putting in the marks.
 
I think a lot of smaller games could adapt this fairly easily in truth. I don't know why anyone would get their nose out of joint if a decent Am made $100-150 worth of gas money because the AD had it there and it was a "keep what you kill" kind of budget. I mean if you're arguing that, you're lacking a bit of something to do. Bigger games can have more divisions because, well, they can.
 
The question comes up about "what about invite only games" but hell, that's on the AD. Most of the invitees are the cream of the crop. The "Elite" as it were. More competition, bigger throws, bigger payout, travel money, hotels, hookers, blow, whatever. But that's your big games, right? Not every game can be a big one and not every game WANTS to be a big one.
 
A small games with a modest budget might not be able to attract some of the bigger pros just because of the financial sense. But you might get some high level Ams making a trip if they know they might recoup some gas money.
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