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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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We're all here posting during work hours Thom!
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meat
Senior Member Top 10 in the USA - '07-'12 Joined: 11/18/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 715 |
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Another area post from me.
Congrats Dan on crushing huge marks! I think all Steve is trying to do is take this opportunity to clarify a rule. He is a judge and runs one of the top games anywhere. Let's take this opportunity to maybe start to create a universal set of rules, all get on the same page, and have just a bit more continuity to our rules and judging. We can agree to disagree, analyze the shit out of it, or find some common ground and make small change on a piece of paper to hopefully help define our games just a little better. Peace out for another year.
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Sean Betz
Postaholic World Champ - 08 Joined: 9/09/04 Status: Offline Points: 1036 |
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If we wanted to we could actually have a vote on whether or not Dan's hammer throws at Utah should be counted as records. Adam is the one that tracks the accepted world records anyway. The SGA has their own records. Whch by the way, Francis's 56 WFD and Gregor's 28 WFD records were thrown off of cliffs. I saw Larry break Francis's 56 WFD record in Durness with a 15 inch WOB implement and they didn't count it. We didn't realize until after we got back to the B&B. Scotland is more about field records anyway.
I think this discussion is a good one because we have to be willing to hold each other accountable to the validity of record throws. We have to be willing to call out those throws that are not legit. NASGA is the closest thing to having a consensus of heavy events athletes worldwide.
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billw
Senior Member Joined: 10/02/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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I don't post very often but man I'm getting sick of all this crap If the length is correct and the weight is on who cares what the shape of the hammer head is I don't see anyone worrying about the shape of the weights or shape of sheaf bags what's next, I'm excited for Dan and I strive to throw hammers (and all things highland games) as far as Dan as I'm sure many others do I just get sick of seeing this same nit picking on the boards, be happy we have games and good implements to throw period.
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Sponsored by friends of Billw
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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^^ Agreed. If we're voting, I obv vote 'yes', the records should count. That being said, the implements were not within the rules, and I'm not really sure how that's debatable. But... What if we just not worry about World Records, cause they don't mean anything, and just concentrate on field records where the same implements are used year after year? Would peoples egos allow that? Every game is it's own entity anyway, use what ever rules and throw whatever they want. |
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Duncan McCallum
Postaholic Joined: 12/07/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7442 |
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Not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with Betz. It really might be time for the Highland Games, at least on this side of the planet, to standardize some rules; hammers must be spherical, Braemar stones must weigh at least 22 pounds, throwing areas must be no more than X degrees downhill, etc.If we keep doing what we've always done we'll continue to get what we've always got; personally, I feel we owe it to ourselves to raise the standards of our performances, individually and as a Sport, to a higher level of accountability.
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The man in the arena.
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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I vote yes WR.
Tip 'o the hat 'ol chap. |
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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ok cool.. stop allowing spin wob stop throwing sheaf stop throwing >24# braemar stones kthxbai srs though, Dan went 155 at the Arnold and he went 157 with a half sphere. You really think he wasn't going to hit it at some point this year? So scratch the Utah records and watch him break both of them again this year at Estes. Shrug. I really doubt this was a one time performance by Dan. He'll go 135/160 or more at some point. |
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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That all depends on what your definition of 'is' is.
Amen!
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Solid post Duncan.
If we change the rules to accommodate an unusual practice rather than changing the unusual practice to conform to the rules we are going down a slippery slope. Right now this is about a few guys who are tinkering with the implements to make them go farther (personally, I spent my time trying to improve my strength and technique so that I could actually throw farther but I guess I’m funny that way). Who knows where it goes next. Once the rules follow the athletes rather than the athletes following the rules there ain’t much point in having rules.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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Mike Beech
Postaholic Joined: 11/07/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Until we decide to have a "governing body" all of this is moot.
I'm all for standardization and centralization, but I'm also a realist.
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Duncan McCallum
Postaholic Joined: 12/07/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7442 |
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Like I said, by doing nothing we are really just inviting more controversy.
Good luck with that. |
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The man in the arena.
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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My point is if you're going to standardize it then standardize it all around. People speak of tradition yet seem to only want to do "some" things traditionally while other things can be nowhere close. How long before we're mandated to have a specific tartan, matching socks and additional constants? F standardization imo. With the exception of over-heavy braemar stones, I enjoy throwing all the different variations of implements. IMO, that's part of what makes the games.... the games. We have a league for standardization, it's called T&F. |
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Ryan Stewart
Senior Member Joined: 11/15/06 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 811 |
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How dare you say no sheaf Sully! ;)
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John Gallagher- "MASS MOVES MASS"
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Duncan McCallum
Postaholic Joined: 12/07/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7442 |
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Jake,
I'm certainly picking up what you're putting down, and I agree with most of your points. In my heart, I have a vested interest in the "traditional" aspects of this Sport and as stewards of both the past and present of the Highland Games we have a responsibility to maintain a connection to that tradition.
That being said, the body which doesn't adapt doesn't survive, and that's a fact with few exceptions, if any, in the world of sports; one of the only real constants in sports is that change.
Mandated socks and kilts? That sort of slippery slope fallacy is at the root of this argument. We have to get beyond this kind of thinking.
I believe standardization "all around" would actually help the Sport; what's more, these changes wouldn't be that difficult to institute at all. We would just have to agree to do it. Starting at the top.
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The man in the arena.
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Mike Beech
Postaholic Joined: 11/07/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I say this genuinely, and with zero sarcasm: Define "the top" in this sport. |
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Soul Eater
Senior Member Joined: 7/31/08 Location: Papua New Guinea Status: Offline Points: 950 |
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Standardization are in the rules they are the same pretty much everywhere. They read fairly simpley, if you choose to leave 1/3 of the design factor off your implement and now call this halfmoon a sphere then you went to a different school than me. You folks want to call it a world record because you don't feel it's right for Dan to loose the record then I'm fine with it, but put an astrix next to it and any other record that was done like Sean mentioned. When in doubt give it to the athlete. Mind you don't change rules for an advantage, change them because they are ambiguous this rule is not ambiguous it reads fine. I'm sure people are thinking about running out and buying a set of these weights as we speak, go to the gym, lift, practice the throws GROW STRONGER! that's the advantage. Dan is an incredible athlete most likely the best of all time we should provide him and any other athlete the correct implements to make world record marks.
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Mike Beech
Postaholic Joined: 11/07/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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And what if someone doesn't follow the NASGA rules in how their hammers are built? What are the repercussions? Are they not allowed to enter their numbers in the database? Are they fined? Would Dan's world record be stricken from the "official NASGA record book?"
My point here is that you can scream about whether or not a world record is questionable or not, but it's all pissing in the wind because there is no central governance of this sport. There are literally no consequences to playing by whatever rules you want. NASGA is great, but it's a database and a message board with a set of suggested rules. If people are going to take issue with the equipment used on a world record throw, then they should take a moment to consider what "fairness" and "standardization" actually mean through the wider lens of the entire sport and how it's played and judged. If these same people want to lead the charge with their time and wallets to truly create governance, I will be right there with them. Great throw, Dan.
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JWC III
Postaholic Joined: 8/30/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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Not me...oh...wait...nevermind. |
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Thom Van Vleck
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Ryan's 156'5" at Stanford Stadium back in '98 was never listed as a World or American record because of a 'technicality'. But somehow today it would be wrong to deny Dan's throw record status because of a 'technicality'. Not sure I understand that. Both are great throws but happened outside the norms that are accepted for setting records. There is a very credible legend that Matt threw over 160' in a practice session. I wasn't there so I can't confirm it but I saw him throw a lot of hammer over the years and I TOTALLY believe it. Is that a World Record?
As for the whole experimental hammer thing, count me out. Next up, hammers handcrafted by Simon P. Gillis himself.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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agm_
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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The difference, to me, is that Ryan knew or should have known going in that records can only be set in full games, in competition. Dan's throws were with equipment that have been used for a few years without being questioned or challenged. The rule violated is legitimate and nearly universal but somewhat obscure; the effect of the hammer shape on the throw is probably real but not demonstrably more significant than other unrestricted variables. Under those circumstances, it seems (to me) unfair to strip him of his records. Especially since the common opinion seems to be that he's going to break them again - these were great throws, not freak throws. But now that this issue has been raised, the existence of the rule pointed out, and attention drawn to it, I would have no problem with enforcing it from this point forward for any and all records I track. And since we have no governing body to set and/or change rules, and since any records in our non-standardized sport are approximations at best, that's really all it takes to get it done. Nobody has to change anything - it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the question of who throws farther on that day, on that field. The only people affected are the handful who might be in a position to set a record. The people who don't care about records can go away and laugh about the whole thing. The people who do care will know what it takes to get a name on my list. And the people who disagree are free to start their own records list, which will be every bit as legitimate as mine. |
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agm_
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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OK, now, that's obscure. But relevant |
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Steve Conway
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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At the very least it's good to see some passion on the NASGA message bord. Was anything accomplished? Probably not...we can all agree that Dan's throws were huge and there's probably more in the tank. For now, the SHA rules will stay the same and I ask anyone that plays by our rules to please follow them as written.
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Borges
Postaholic The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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I'm completely with you on this Adam.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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Sean Betz
Postaholic World Champ - 08 Joined: 9/09/04 Status: Offline Points: 1036 |
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Khruel
Senior Member Top 10 in the USA - '12 Joined: 5/31/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 236 |
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I just read the sheaf rules and soon I will be spinning the sheaf like a WOB using my claw hand fork. Prepare for records.
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Greg Hadley
Postaholic Joined: 12/27/04 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1142 |
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Sean is correct. I also heard 170/160 in the LH from Matt. I also heard a 135 HH.
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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... your fingers? how's that work, are you going to cut two of them off? |
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grasshopper
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: Berwick, Maine Status: Offline Points: 3324 |
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Just to clarify. The NASGA rules state the hammer needs to be spherical.
Spherical as defined by Meriam-Webster is I believe a hemisphere is one of the segments of a sphere known as a spherical cap. Problem solved.
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"Breathe deeply. Refuse to be weak. Refuse to be sick. Refuse to die. Think strong and you will be." -The Mighty Atom (Yoselle Greenstein)
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mike landrich
Senior Member Joined: 4/12/09 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 306 |
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I remember when tennis players had the audacity to use aluminum racquets and the traditionalists demanded that wood be used.
And when golfers showed up with oversized drivers and the traditionalists cried foul and when bowhunters starting using compounds and some traditionalists demanded recurves, who in turn were derided by the longbow aficianados and Bob Fosbury changed the high-jump world with the flop. Did it earn an asterisk? sheaf forks are custom made with spring steel. Why not stick with store bought forks and no additional modifications, including, but not limited to: bending tines, removing tines, grinding/polishing tines, aluminum handles, turnbuckles for handles, etc. And that doesn't even address the aforementioned by other posters non-tradition of even doing sheaf. Stand vs spin has been beaten to death, but is still allowed, but only here in the US. Apparently tradition is like food at a buffet: pick and choose. and now, traditionalists are demeaning a HUGE hammer throw because of the shape of an implement? Dan is a stud and the adversity will only make him throw further. If a sphere is not perfectly round, and is in fact shorter and fatter, is it still a sphere? Maybe use calipers to determine an acceptable variance from height vs width? Otherwise , I can make a "sphere" that resembles Stewie Griffin's head
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"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and win by experience"-Mark Twain
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