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C. Smith View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 9:18am
We're all here posting during work hours Thom!  Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote meat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 9:26am
Another area post from me.

Congrats Dan on crushing huge marks!

I think all Steve is trying to do is take this opportunity to clarify a rule. He is a judge and runs one of the top games anywhere. Let's take this opportunity to maybe start to create a universal set of rules, all get on the same page, and have just a bit more continuity to our rules and judging.

We can agree to disagree, analyze the shit out of it, or find some common ground and make small change on a piece of paper to hopefully help define our games just a little better.

Peace out for another year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Betz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 9:32am
If we wanted to we could actually have a vote on whether or not Dan's hammer throws at Utah should be counted as records.  Adam is the one that tracks the accepted world records anyway.  The SGA has their own records.   Whch by the way, Francis's 56 WFD and Gregor's 28 WFD records were thrown off of cliffs.   I saw Larry break Francis's 56 WFD record in Durness with a 15 inch WOB implement and they didn't count it.  We didn't realize until after we got back to the B&B.  Scotland is more about field records anyway.    
 
I think this discussion is a good one because we have to be willing to hold each other accountable to the validity of record throws.   We have to be willing to call out those throws that are not legit.  NASGA is the closest thing to having a consensus of heavy events athletes worldwide. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 9:42am
I don't post very often but man I'm getting sick of all this crap If the length is correct and the weight is on who cares what the shape of the hammer head is I don't see anyone worrying about the shape of the weights or shape of sheaf bags what's next, I'm excited for Dan and I strive to throw hammers (and all things highland games) as far as Dan as I'm sure many others do I just get sick of seeing this same nit picking on the boards, be happy we have games and good implements to throw period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Sean Betz Sean Betz wrote:

I think this discussion is a good one because we have to be willing to hold each other accountable to the validity of record throws.   We have to be willing to call out those throws that are not legit.  NASGA is the closest thing to having a consensus of heavy events athletes worldwide. 


^^ Agreed.



If we're voting, I obv vote 'yes', the records should count.  That being said, the implements were not within the rules, and I'm not really sure how that's debatable. 

But...

What if we just not worry about World Records, cause they don't mean anything, and just concentrate on field records where the same implements are used year after year?

Would peoples egos allow that?

Every game is it's own entity anyway, use what ever rules and throw whatever they want. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:14am

Not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with Betz. 

It really might be time for the Highland Games, at least on this side of the planet, to standardize some rules; hammers must be spherical, Braemar stones must weigh at least 22 pounds, throwing areas must be no more than X degrees downhill, etc.
 
If we keep doing what we've always done we'll continue to get what we've always got; personally, I feel we owe it to ourselves to raise the standards of our performances, individually and as a Sport, to a higher level of accountability. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:16am
I vote yes WR.

Tip 'o the hat 'ol chap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:26am
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

Not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with Betz. 



It really might be time for the Highland Games, at least on this side of the planet, to standardize some rules; hammers must be spherical, Braemar stones must weigh at least 22 pounds, throwing areas must be no more than X degrees downhill, etc.
 

If we keep doing what we've always done we'll continue to get what we've always got; personally, I feel we owe it to ourselves to raise the standards of our performances, individually and as a Sport, to a higher level of accountability. 


ok cool..

stop allowing spin wob
stop throwing sheaf
stop throwing >24# braemar stones

kthxbai



srs though, Dan went 155 at the Arnold and he went 157 with a half sphere. You really think he wasn't going to hit it at some point this year?

So scratch the Utah records and watch him break both of them again this year at Estes. Shrug. I really doubt this was a one time performance by Dan. He'll go 135/160 or more at some point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:32am
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

That being said, the implements were not within the rules, and I'm not really sure how that's debatable.
That all depends on what your definition of 'is' is.
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

What if we just not worry about World Records, cause they don't mean anything, and just concentrate on field records where the same implements are used year after year? 
 Amen!
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Would peoples egos allow that?
Houston, we have a problem.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

Not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with Betz. 

It really might be time for the Highland Games, at least on this side of the planet, to standardize some rules; hammers must be spherical, Braemar stones must weigh at least 22 pounds, throwing areas must be no more than X degrees downhill, etc.
 
If we keep doing what we've always done we'll continue to get what we've always got; personally, I feel we owe it to ourselves to raise the standards of our performances, individually and as a Sport, to a higher level of accountability. 
Solid post Duncan.
 
If we change the rules to accommodate an unusual practice rather than changing the unusual practice to conform to the rules we are going down a slippery slope. Right now this is about a few guys who are tinkering with the implements to make them go farther (personally, I spent my time trying to improve my strength and technique so that I could actually throw farther but I guess I’m funny that way). Who knows where it goes next. Once the rules follow the athletes rather than the athletes following the rules there ain’t much point in having rules.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 10:59am
Until we decide to have a "governing body" all of this is moot.

I'm all for standardization and centralization, but I'm also a realist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 11:03am
Originally posted by jsully jsully wrote:

Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

Not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with Betz. 



It really might be time for the Highland Games, at least on this side of the planet, to standardize some rules; hammers must be spherical, Braemar stones must weigh at least 22 pounds, throwing areas must be no more than X degrees downhill, etc.
 

If we keep doing what we've always done we'll continue to get what we've always got; personally, I feel we owe it to ourselves to raise the standards of our performances, individually and as a Sport, to a higher level of accountability. 


ok cool..

stop allowing spin wob
stop throwing sheaf
stop throwing >24# braemar stones

kthxbai



srs though, Dan went 155 at the Arnold and he went 157 with a half sphere. You really think he wasn't going to hit it at some point this year?

So scratch the Utah records and watch him break both of them again this year at Estes. Shrug. I really doubt this was a one time performance by Dan. He'll go 135/160 or more at some point.
 
Like I said, by doing nothing we are really just inviting more controversy. 
 
Good luck with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

 

Like I said, by doing nothing we are really just inviting more controversy. 

 

Good luck with that.


My point is if you're going to standardize it then standardize it all around. People speak of tradition yet seem to only want to do "some" things traditionally while other things can be nowhere close.

How long before we're mandated to have a specific tartan, matching socks and additional constants? F standardization imo. With the exception of over-heavy braemar stones, I enjoy throwing all the different variations of implements. IMO, that's part of what makes the games.... the games.


We have a league for standardization, it's called T&F.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 12:12pm
How dare you say no sheaf Sully! ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 1:00pm
Jake,
I'm certainly picking up what you're putting down, and I agree with most of your points.  In my heart, I have a vested interest in the "traditional" aspects of this Sport and as stewards of both the past and present of the Highland Games we have a responsibility to maintain a connection to that tradition.
 
That being said, the body which doesn't adapt doesn't survive, and that's a fact with few exceptions, if any, in the world of sports; one of the only real constants in sports is that change.
 
Mandated socks and kilts?  That sort of slippery slope fallacy is at the root of this argument.  We have to get beyond this kind of thinking.
 
I believe standardization "all around" would actually help the Sport; what's more, these changes wouldn't be that difficult to institute at all.  We would just have to agree to do it.  Starting at the top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

I believe standardization "all around" would actually help the Sport; what's more, these changes wouldn't be that difficult to institute at all.  We would just have to agree to do it.  Starting at the top.

I say this genuinely, and with zero sarcasm:

Define "the top" in this sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 1:45pm
Standardization are in the rules they are the same pretty much everywhere. They read fairly simpley, if you choose to leave 1/3 of the design factor off your implement and now call this halfmoon a sphere then you went to a different school than me. You folks want to call it a world record because you don't feel it's right for Dan to loose the record then I'm fine with it, but put an astrix next to it and any other record that was done like Sean mentioned. When in doubt give it to the athlete. Mind you don't change rules for an advantage, change them because they are ambiguous this rule is not ambiguous it reads fine. I'm sure people are thinking about running out and buying a set of these weights as we speak, go to the gym, lift, practice the throws GROW STRONGER! that's the advantage. Dan is an incredible athlete most likely the best of all time we should provide him and any other athlete the correct implements to make world record marks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 1:59pm
And what if someone doesn't follow the NASGA rules in how their hammers are built? What are the repercussions? Are they not allowed to enter their numbers in the database? Are they fined? Would Dan's world record be stricken from the "official NASGA record book?"

My point here is that you can scream about whether or not a world record is questionable or not, but it's all pissing in the wind because there is no central governance of this sport. There are literally no consequences to playing by whatever rules you want. NASGA is great, but it's a database and a message board with a set of suggested rules.

If people are going to take issue with the equipment used on a world record throw, then they should take a moment to consider what "fairness" and "standardization" actually mean through the wider lens of the entire sport and how it's played and judged. If these same people want to lead the charge with their time and wallets to truly create governance, I will be right there with them.

Great throw, Dan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JWC III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

We're all here posting during work hours Thom!  Big smile

Not me...oh...wait...nevermind.  Dead


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 2:26pm
Ryan's 156'5" at Stanford Stadium back in '98 was never listed as a World or American record because of a 'technicality'. But somehow today it would be wrong to deny Dan's throw record status because of a 'technicality'. Not sure I understand that. Both are great throws but happened outside the norms that are accepted for setting records. There is a very credible legend that Matt threw over 160' in a practice session. I wasn't there so I can't confirm it but I saw him throw a lot of hammer over the years and I TOTALLY believe it. Is that a World Record?
 
As for the whole experimental hammer thing, count me out. Next up, hammers handcrafted by Simon P. Gillis himself.
Cheers,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

Ryan's 156'5" at Stanford Stadium back in '98 was never listed as a World or American record because of a 'technicality'. But somehow today it would be wrong to deny Dan's throw record status because of a 'technicality'. Not sure I understand that. Both are great throws but happened outside the norms that are accepted for setting records.

The difference, to me, is that Ryan knew or should have known going in that records can only be set in full games, in competition. Dan's throws were with equipment that have been used for a few years without being questioned or challenged. The rule violated is legitimate and nearly universal but somewhat obscure; the effect of the hammer shape on the throw is probably real but not demonstrably more significant than other unrestricted variables. Under those circumstances, it seems (to me) unfair to strip him of his records. Especially since the common opinion seems to be that he's going to break them again - these were great throws, not freak throws.

But now that this issue has been raised, the existence of the rule pointed out, and attention drawn to it, I would have no problem with enforcing it from this point forward for any and all records I track. And since we have no governing body to set and/or change rules, and since any records in our non-standardized sport are approximations at best, that's really all it takes to get it done.

Nobody has to change anything - it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the question of who throws farther on that day, on that field. The only people affected are the handful who might be in a position to set a record. The people who don't care about records can go away and laugh about the whole thing. The people who do care will know what it takes to get a name on my list. And the people who disagree are free to start their own records list, which will be every bit as legitimate as mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

Next up, hammers handcrafted by Simon P. Gillis himself.

OK, now, that's obscure. But relevant
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 3:31pm
At the very least it's good to see some passion on the NASGA message bord. Was anything accomplished? Probably not...we can all agree that Dan's throws were huge and there's probably more in the tank. For now, the SHA rules will stay the same and I ask anyone that plays by our rules to please follow them as written.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 3:37pm
  I'm completely with you on this Adam.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Betz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

Ryan's 156'5" at Stanford Stadium back in '98 was never listed as a World or American record because of a 'technicality'. But somehow today it would be wrong to deny Dan's throw record status because of a 'technicality'. Not sure I understand that. Both are great throws but happened outside the norms that are accepted for setting records. There is a very credible legend that Matt threw over 160' in a practice session. I wasn't there so I can't confirm it but I saw him throw a lot of hammer over the years and I TOTALLY believe it. Is that a World Record?
 
As for the whole experimental hammer thing, count me out. Next up, hammers handcrafted by Simon P. Gillis himself.
Actually from what I heard Matt threw over 170 in practice and high 160's in a games before he was banned for 4 or 5 years.  After Matt came back from his suspension and threw his 129'10' and 155+, he also threw over 153 at Costa Mesa with a bobby dodd, 3/4 inch handle, in a hard dirt parking lot.  Possibly the best throw I've heard of with a non-whippy shaft, 3/4 handle, and a steel large 16 ball, on a flat field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khruel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 5:30pm
I just read the sheaf rules and soon I will be spinning the sheaf like a WOB using my claw hand fork.  Prepare for records.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Hadley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 6:08pm
Sean is correct. I also heard 170/160 in the LH from Matt. I also heard a 135 HH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Khruel Khruel wrote:

I just read the sheaf rules and soon I will be spinning the sheaf like a WOB using my claw hand fork.  Prepare for records.


... your fingers?

how's that work, are you going to cut two of them off?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 8:01pm
Just to clarify.  The NASGA rules state the hammer needs to be spherical.

Spherical as defined by Meriam-Webster is

1:  having the form of a sphere or of one of its segments

I believe a hemisphere is one of the segments of a sphere known as a spherical cap.  

Problem solved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike landrich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/20/14 at 11:34pm
I remember when tennis players had the audacity to use aluminum racquets and the traditionalists demanded that wood be used.

And when golfers showed up with oversized drivers and the traditionalists cried foul

and when bowhunters starting using compounds and some traditionalists demanded recurves, who in turn were derided by the longbow aficianados

and Bob Fosbury changed the high-jump world with the flop. Did it earn an asterisk?

sheaf forks are custom made with spring steel. Why not stick with store bought forks and no additional modifications, including, but not limited to: bending tines, removing tines, grinding/polishing tines, aluminum handles, turnbuckles for handles, etc. And that doesn't even address the aforementioned by other posters non-tradition of even doing sheaf.

Stand vs spin has been beaten to death, but is still allowed, but only here in the US. Apparently tradition is like food at a buffet: pick and choose.

and now, traditionalists are demeaning a HUGE hammer throw because of the shape of an implement? Dan is a stud and the adversity will only make him throw further. 

If a sphere is not perfectly round, and is in fact shorter and fatter, is it still a sphere? Maybe use calipers to determine an acceptable variance from height vs width? Otherwise , I can make a "sphere" that resembles Stewie Griffin's head
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