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WALLY.OLECIK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WALLY.OLECIK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 12:22am
But could you get longer throws with Stewie Griffin's head?  Confused  And might you not run into copyright problems?  Geek  lf you're going non-traditional, you have to make sure that it works!  Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 4:55am
Originally posted by mike landrich mike landrich wrote:


and now, traditionalists are demeaning a HUGE hammer throw because of the shape of an implement?

Nobody's demeaning the throws.

And screw this "traditionalists" bullshit. In the case of WOB, spinning wasn't specifically prohibited by the written rules, so the debate was in large part over tradition vs written text, and traditionalists lost.

This is different. Every major ruleset in North America and Scotland requires a specific shape for the hammer head. A half-sphere isn't pushing the limits of the written rules, it's breaking them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike landrich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 6:07am
Originally posted by agm_ agm_ wrote:

 

And screw this "traditionalists" bullshit. In the case of WOB, spinning wasn't specifically prohibited by the written rules, so the debate was in large part over tradition vs written text, and traditionalists lost.


the word TRADITION was used many times defending the rule. 

As for WOB, someone found something that was neither traditional nor prohibited and took advantage of it. Why did the rules makers not change the rules to close what was a gaping hole, rather than insist on enforcing a restrictive rule like the hammer rule? Strongman is being  ruined by Dione Wessels insistence on standardizing events. Let's do the same in HG with implements. 

Oh well, I charge more for sphere hammers, so its in my best interest to be a sheep and not say anything. But, this is wrong and I had to say my piece.
"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and win by experience"-Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 10:20am
This is a discussion on an open forum, people are discussing this like adults. You don't have to agree with anyone. Last I looked this is America we were given this right to say what we want about this subject and we are. Nothing has been settled, and the opinions that everyone is bringing to the table are important because we are the ones responsible for where this sport ends up. This sport might be similar in 100 years or then again I could look allot different. But all of us, Pro,Masters, Am's and Women athletes are entrusted with this games future and we have a responsible decision to make about this. Spinning WOB is not done in Scotland, Canada, or most large games in the US that is fact. Will it go away who knows but it's peak has come and gone. The debate is about the word spherical and what it really means, the rule set guidelines suggest it means round. That is what we are trying to figure out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 1:12pm
  For the record, after the debates about spinning WOB nearly every country changed their rules to forbid it, as did several internationally recognized sets of rules. Kel is correct that many games in the US ban it. These local bans are FREQUENTLY motivated by a desire to prevent a fracture in how the games are conducted here vs. Scotland (the home of the games).

  As for the ridiculous parsing over the meaning of the word spherical I can only laugh. I WROTE the rule sets used by several organizations. You want to use a dictionary to tell me what I meant by the word 'spherical'? And before anyone who doesn't know me tries to explain the meaning of the word 'spherical' to me you should take some time to find out what it is I do for a living. It's remotely possible that I know what it means.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 1:53pm
Lol....
Carlos I wasn't implying you didn't know the meaning of spherical.   I was just pointing out that the phrase complete sphere should have been used because a hemisphere falls under the realm of spherical.
I like words.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 2:00pm
If folks feel the need to get all lawyerly about it then complete sphere would be wrong too since it has a great big hole through the middle. They're rules for a game that are meant to confirm standards that are already well understood by most participants, not jury instructions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 2:09pm
And for those of you who spend your days trying to create magic flyer hammers I have two words - depleted uranium.

If memory serves, the great Mike Smith had a tungsten 28 that he tinkered with. Helluva flyer.
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Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 3:10pm
Sorry Carlos.    My wife's a lawyer...lol
We had this discussion about a decade ago on here and it was decide that a weight made from a neutron star would be the most effective implement!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Vierra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 3:34pm
This is all academic...Dan will crush those hammer distances in September and Ill add that he will own both weight records when this year is finished. Dan IS the best hammer thrower history has ever witnessed, with out question!

I like predictions, so here's what I feel he's capable of:

22 Hammer: 136
16 Hammer: 163
56 Weight: 52
28 Weight: 98

(All with spherical implements )

Get after it Dan! These distances are in your reach!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 3:41pm
No worries Grasshopper. 

Neutron star sounds fun but you're limited to osmium or iridium on good old planet earth. You could try tungsten. It's almost 70% denser than lead so a 16 would come up substantially smaller than a lead 12, smaller still if you used a PVC handle with a tungsten plug to get that CM waaaaaaay out there. The brittleness might be a problem but with a proper alloy...Or you could just go out and train.
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Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rob meulenberg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 4:14pm
Os at 13 grand per kilo seems like a bad choice.  lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/21/14 at 5:19pm
52' and 98', huh?


Originally posted by rob meulenberg rob meulenberg wrote:

Os at 13 grand per kilo seems like a bad choice.  lol


It may seem like it initially, but just think...you could have a WORLD RECORD.

Think about what that means.  

It's really a priceless return on a mere $166k investment.     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/22/14 at 4:02pm
Os has some side effect's outside of the price, and oil and grip usually don't mix. 

Finely divided metallic osmium is pyrophoric.[48] Osmium reacts with oxygen at room temperature forming volatile osmium tetroxide. Some osmium compounds are also converted to the tetroxide if oxygen is present.[48] This makes osmium tetroxide the main source of contact with the environment.

Osmium tetroxide is highly volatile and penetrates skin readily, and is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and skin contact.[66] Airborne low concentrations of osmium tetroxide vapor can cause lung congestion and skin or eye damage, and should therefore be used in a fume hood.[17] Osmium tetroxide is rapidly reduced to relatively inert compounds bypolyunsaturated vegetable oils, such as corn oil.[67]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/22/14 at 5:52pm
Simon P. Gillis did it with mercury which is a liquid at room temp, can't see how osmium would be anymore problematic than that.
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Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WALLY.OLECIK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/22/14 at 7:19pm
Okay, call me a traditionalist.  Call me old fashioned.  (Just don't call me late for happy hour!)  l have a working knowledge of aerodynamics that would permit me to design an aerodynamic, heavy metal 'spherical' hammer that would fly, baby, fly!  Then, be faced with the lack of grass at the Claw which would make the distances seem very ordinary!  So l plan to just continue to use our very traditional Bobby Dodd's with rattan handles 'cuz that's what Donald Dinnie would expect!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerws76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/23/14 at 1:04am
Ha! Donald Dinnie MAY have expected an actual Sledge Hammer Head! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerws76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/23/14 at 1:11am
Interesting History of he Hammer Throw:

From:  http://www.jardine-electronics.com/gpj/athletics/hist.html

HISTORY OF THE HAMMER THROW


by Charles B. Black


Spectators of the hammer throw at modern track and field meets are often puzzled as to how a 16 pound ball on a four foot wire acquired this name. Those having witnessed a Scottish hammer throw at a Highland Games will be a little more enlightened, as this implement more closely resembles the working sledge hammer which is. in fact. the direct ancestor of the modern throwing hammer. 

As with other customs with a long heritage, the sport of hammer throwing has uncertain origins. though. given man's tendency to turn the objects around him to the uses of sport. it likely dates back as far as do the hammers themselves. There have been attempts to link the sport with the roth-cleas or 'wheel feat' of the ancient Irish Tailteann Games (1829 B.C.) or the 'casting of the bar' of Renaissance England. These connections are tenuous at best, as the former is considered folkloric and the latter often appears alongside of 'throwing the sledge hammer in lists of events. The description of the throwing of a chariot spoke by the hero Cuchulain at the Tailteann Games by spinning around and releasing it is certainly not far off of later descriptions of bar and hammer throwing. 

One of the earliest references to weight and hammer throwing is from the reign of Edward III (1327-1377) These sports were among those prohibited in an effort to prevent men from neglecting their archery practice. Interestingly enough. this concern was partially the result of threats from the -Scots, including Robert the Bruce. who had won Scottish independence from Edward II in the battle of Bannockburn in 1314. 

Many references to hammer throwing occur in sixteenth and seventeenth century descriptions of rural fairs and sports. Barclay's 'Eclogues'. published in 1508. quotes a shepherd thusly: 

I can both hurle and sling. 
I runne, I wrestle. I can well throw the barre, 
No shepherd throweth the axeltree so farre; 
If I were merry, I could well leap and spring. 
I were a man mete to serve prince or king.

The sixteenth century minstrel Randel Holme described the sports of Lancashire, His poem begins: 

Any they dare challenge for to throw the sledge, 
To jump or leape over a ditch or hedge, 
To wrastle, play at stoole-ball or to runne, 
To pitche the barre or to shoote a gunne...

During the reign of Henry VIII (1509-1547), running and field sports were especially popular, and the monarch himself was supposedly adept at hammer throwing. Richard Pace, secretary to King Henry, went as far as to advise noblemen's sons to pursue sports, 'and leave study and learning to the children of meaner people"! Pace's contemporary, Sir William Forest, in his 'Poesye of Princelye Practice' likewise advises that princes should 

In featis of maistries bestowe some diligence. 
Too ryde, runne, lepe, or caste by violence 
Stone, barre or plummett, or such other thinge, 
It not refuseth any prince or kynge.

(a 'plummet' is a weight, and probably refers to a sledgehammer in this context) 

A 1566 court record reads as follows: 'Alexander Gyfford, aged ' twenty-eight, husbandman of Drydrayton, Cambs., pardoned for having by misadventure on 4th June, feloniously struck John Gyfford, a spectator, aged 8, at a game of 'throwing the coulter' at Drydrayton, so that he died the same day'. The 'coulter" referred to is a coulter's or quarryman's hammer. Fortunately this early legal precedent fell in favor of the of continuance of our sport! 

The Cotswold Olimpick Games, held between 1612 and 1852 includes sledge hammer throwing, with a throw of 100 feet 3 1/2 inches being recorded 'without run and follow'. This was almost certainly accomplished with the spinning style William Denny gave the following description of this event in 'Annalia Dubrensia': 

Of whom some leape, some wrastle for the day; 
Some throw the sledge and others spurne the barre; 
All act a part which makes them fit for warre.

Henry Peacham the younger, in his 'Compleat Gentleman' of 1622 says that throwing the hammer and wrestling are low-class sports, 'not so well beseeming nobility but rather soldiers in a camp and the prince's guard'. He also states that Achmat, the emperor of Turkey, made a hammer throw such that, 'there was reared in Constantinople, for one extraordinary cast which none could come near, two great pillars of marble'! 

References to hammer throwing at rural fairs and wakes appear periodically until the mid nineteenth century. Modern university athletic meetings began in England in the 1850's and were common annual events within 15 years. Hammer throwing was gradually included at these meetings. thereupon earning its place amongst modern track and field events. 

The early hammers were of various forms. The lighter ones (from 8 to 16) pounds were from blacksmiths or wheelwrights shops (where they were used to pound the iron tires onto wagon wheels). The heaviest hammer (those over 20 pounds) were used for quarrying rock. These two distinct origins are manifested today in the Highland games with the persistence of 'light' (16 pound) and 'heavy' (22 pound) hammers. 

Handles of the working hammers tended to be from 2 and a half to 3 and a half feet long, with the longer ones obviously leading to longer throws, which explains the relatively long modern length of 4 feet 2 inches in the Scottish Hammer and 4 feet in the international hammer. These handles were hardwood, and thus would tend to break on hard ground. leading to experimentation with many other materials, even grapevines. In 1892, Malcolm W. Ford recommended whalebone handles of 3/8 inch diameter. The wire handle was legalized for the international hammer in 1896. The Scottish hammer has adopted the use of rattan, which is less likely to break than hardwood, while retaining the original character of the event. 

In common with most sports, hammer throwing originally had virtually no rules. Well into the nineteenth century, the weight was standard at 16 pounds, but the hammers could be of any material, with any length of handle. The approach was unlimited and the hammer could be thrown in any direction, with the measurement being taken from the foot of the thrower. Eventually, for reasons of safety and fair competition, a 7 foot circle was introduced and the length and material of the hammer was standardized. Later still, cages were introduced and the direction of the throw restricted a fairly narrow sector. In Scotland and America, the event was further restricted in the mid nineteenth century by disallowing turns or the movement of the feet during the throw. In America, this rule was modified to allow the 7 foot circle in 1888, but the Scottish hammer retains the standing throw. 

This hammer was introduced into the second modern Olympic games in i900. Rules for both the Scottish and international hammer have remained virtually unchanged since that time. While wire hammer technique has undergone many changes since the turn of the century, the 'round the head" style introduced by Donald Dinnie in the 1860's is still used in the Scottish hammer. This has resulted in a relatively small improvement in Scottish hammer records during that time (From Dinnie's 128' to Bill Anderson's 151'2"), relative to the international hammer, which has improved from 141'31/2" in 1842 to 284'7" today. 


REFERENCES 

Doherty, Ken, Track and Field Omnibook, 4th ed., Tafnews Press, Los Altos, CA. 1985 

Ford, Malcolm W., Hammer Throwing, Outing Magazine. 1892 (Reprinted in Krausz, John, How to Buy an Elephant, Hawthorn Books. New York. 1977) 

Johnson, Carl, Hammer Throwing, British Amateur Athletic Board, 1984 

MacNab, Tom, The Complete Book of Track and Field, Ward Lock Ltd., London; 1980 

Redmond, Gerald, The Caledonian Games in Nineteenth-Century America, Associated University Presses, Cranbury, New Jersey, 1971 

Shearman, Montague, Athletics and Football, Badminton Library of Sports and Pastimes, Duke of Beaufort, ed.. Longmans, Green, and Co., 1887 

Webster, David, Scottish Highland Games, Reprographia, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1973 

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/24/14 at 8:57pm

* Awesome throw Dan
* We do not need a governing body as the rules are all about the same. 
* Field records matter, fictitious ranking in database does not 
* things that do not adapt, may risk dying.  Things that adapt to fast, may also risk dying. This is where we are with a sport that has equal part heritage. 
* Bringing up spin/stand or all the other side issues muddies the water more than helps it (MHO)

Why do people have half sphere (Hemispherical) hammers?  I know why I had half sphere hammers -- I could not afford manufactured hammers and Hemispherical hammers are easy to make.  They maybe easier to make but in the long run they are more expensive as they break handles way to often.  (I broke 100 handles in one game in August after the ground was back all summer).  

I melted all my half sphere hammers but one which I gave to a great midwest hammer thrower (who will remain nameless) as he wanted a hammer of that design (I wonder why?)  -- My hammers are two half-spheres with a cylinder shaped spacer in the middle to get the desired weight.  Would these be disallowed?  I hope not as the center of mass is further up the handle than a true sphere.  BTW, I can go threw a whole season and not break a handle!

Why Sphere matters in the rules - length of Lever -- Hemispherical hammers move the center of mass further down the handle leading to a longer lever.

This tread needs some math!  Assuming lead head hammers:

* A spherical 22lb hammer's diameter is just under 5' , which implies center of mass at 2.5" from end of hammer.

* Using the same model but building a hemisphere hammer, the diameter is 6.21" and center of mass from end of hammer = Radius - 3/8 Radius = 1.94"

Both calculations of center of mass assume solid shapes and not one with a whole for a hammer handle. Never the less, the center of mass is moved by more than 1/2". 

So yes the shape of a hammer matters.  What is the foundation for changing the rules? If you want to change the rules to allow other shape that do it logically and restrict the minimum distance up from the bottom of the handle that the center of mass can be -- this way my hammers and soup can hammers and the like would be legal as there is no potential competitive advantage but big cost savings for the smaller games. 

-- I think the compromise suggested that the record stands but any future records need to be thrown with a spherical shaped hammer is a solid solution. 



Edited by McSanta - 6/24/14 at 11:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/25/14 at 6:15am
I'll take the more 'Legal' view on this. The rule says 'Should be', not 'Shall Be' or 'Must Be'. Therefore there should be no issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy68123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/25/14 at 7:33am
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

I'll take the more 'Legal' view on this. The rule says 'Should be', not 'Shall Be' or 'Must Be'. Therefore there should be no issue.

What rulebook are you looking at? All the ones I have on hand (five of them) say "shall be".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/25/14 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Sammy68123 Sammy68123 wrote:

Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

I'll take the more 'Legal' view on this. The rule says 'Should be', not 'Shall Be' or 'Must Be'. Therefore there should be no issue.

What rulebook are you looking at? All the ones I have on hand (five of them) say "shall be".

Geez.... Always raining on my parade...


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