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A Proposal for Parity for Women |
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K Rogers 
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 Topic: A Proposal for Parity for WomenPosted: 3/04/15 at 6:53am |
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Hey-
After two years of hearing the word used by women and men alike and being confronted by the issue, I may have a breakthrough proposal for the parity for women in the Masters category. While I've not heard from my partner Bill Scruggs about the subject yet, there may be a way and this may be the time. It appears that we have at least 2 emerging trends happening now and they may be forcing us into making some type of choice about how to manage these 2 powerful factors. Importantly, there is the 1) overwhelming numbers of men entering the Masters category of athletes and then there is the equally important occurrence of the 2) organization of an independent group of Masters women in the sport. These two trends can possibly both be addressed with my new proposal. If we need to act and there is a new group of women who are willing to lead, then here is an idea for talking about. The women may be at a point where they seek to exert they're independence and they're power. They have formed a leadership group and they plan to compete at Highland Games by their own designs. So, instead of fighting and arguing about the control and leadership decisions we should recognize that the women's division has matured to the point that they can stand on their own. My proposal is that after this year's event we'll welcome the new Women Masters event - for women and by women. We can split the current design between Men and Women to provide complete and total parity for the women and the new women's organizing group can take control of their new event. They can run the event as they see fit and start their own records. I'll even help it get started and provide a copy of all the existing women's records which can be independently kept and maintained separate from all the men's records. SO, the time for change may indeed be at hand. Congratulations to the independent women of the Masters group. Your independence is recognized and it may be time for you to exert the control that you seek. We can separate the men and the women competitions equally and fairly; it solves the two emerging issues facing the Masters athletes and it gives control to the women who seek it. We can debate and design the two separate organizations and events all summer long and make an announcement at this year's MWC in St. Louis. -K |
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C. Smith
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 7:22am |
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Sort of a 'put your money where your mouth is' proposal.
Brilliant imo. |
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DStewart
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Joined: 2/28/15 Location: So Boston Status: Offline Points: 65 |
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 12:06pm |
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I appoint D Wood as the first Commissioner of the Woman's Heavy Events World Champonships!
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Borges
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The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 1:21pm |
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First of all, kudos to whoever removed Gerry Reynolds idiotic woman bashing post from this thread. To call him a horse's ass would be an insult to horses.
Second, this proposal throws out the baby with the bathwater. I haven't seen any posts from the ladies suggesting they want to bifurcate the MWC or want exclusive control over decisions. What they have asked for is a voice in the process. When Bill Scruggs created the MWC he very wisely included an advisory board to help give all athletes and perspectives a voice in the process. He was the CEO and chairman of the board and made the final decisions but he actively looked for input before he made a decision. I was on that original board and we had regular discussions (mostly via email) concerning important issues. Unfortunately, in recent years that process vanished. I think it would be very beneficial to bring it back and have said as much to Kevin in several private communications. If it were reconstituted and included both men and women of stature in the HG community I believe most of the vitriol would go away. People might not universally endorse the final decisions, but knowing that Kevin (the CEO and chairman of the board) made his decision after consulting with a board and hearing a variety of positions would do much to reduce the perception that decisions were made in a unilateral manner without proper consideration of the interests of all of the stakeholders.
My two cents, your mileage may vary.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 4:24pm |
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Carlos-
Maybe you haven't seen all the posts from all the ladies that I have. They are not often on here. The one thing that they don't lack is a voice. They have voiced their ideas for years clearly and directly via many avenues, including in person and on the field. As you know, I was on the original board too and witnessed the thoughtful deliberations that you are referencing, including your contributions. Many of those people have retired and have moved on. I may be the last active thrower in the original group. None have been in attendance recently or even in any way concerned with the event, except for me and Bill. The end of the group of advisers that you are referring to happened when one of those advisers felt the need to ridicule the Masters in public on here while also claiming to be on the Board. Remember that. That was the end of that management style. You can't both be on the Board and also make comments that ridicule us. You have a duty or responsibility to the group when on the Board and some people can't do that. Remember that, I remember. I've taken advice from more people than I can possibly name and still take the heat for every decision. -K
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Gerry Reynolds
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 4:36pm |
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Kudos to me then.
 My comment was funny but then I thought WHY even bother trying to lighten the mood and removed it. |
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Borges
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The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 4:40pm |
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I guess I have a different view of what a board of advisors needs to be. In the university world you don't pick advisors who are cheerleaders for your university. You pick folks who are thoughtful, experienced, and ,most importantly, PROVOCATIVE because you don't up your game with yes men. Members of the university board of advisors, more often than not, do NOT currently work in universities. They all have experience with them but they are often retired from there, or corporate leadership positions, etc. The ones who bring the most to the table are the ones who PROVOKE the most thought. That's why most board meetings are so very secretive, so that discussions can get as heated as they need to. Frankly, Billy didn't choose me to be a board member because of my charm. I have none now and I had none then. He chose me because he thought I could make meaningful contributions to the process. He's been around and has a thicker skin than you. I'm certainly not suggesting that you put me on a reconstituted board, you likely need people who play a gentler game and don't hit so hard. That is your choice. But Bill's original idea is still sound and you would benefit from bringing it back. Pick a half dozen good people, men and women, with stature in the games, and you can take a step beyond the vitriol.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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Borges
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 4:44pm |
Kudos to you then for deleting it. Although, if you truly think it was funny then why would you do so? I found it extremely distasteful. I suspect most of the folks on this board would agree.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 4:51pm |
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Carlos-
Thank you for you reply. Please believe me that I'm able to chat with people in Texas and Canada and New York and California before coffee in the morning. I carry a smart phone in my pocket with more people's ideas than many libraries of the ancient world. I have not been shy and have read many comments. I doubt that many of the throwers are yes people ... not certain, but my guess more alpha than not. Bill was on board with my decisions last year to resolve the dispute over the women's divisions and weights and was happy about how the MWC 2014 went despite the large numbers and difficult 3-day event. His decision to NOT have a qualifier is a difficult one for me to work out with these kind of numbers at the entry, but I've been able to solve every issue to date. We got everyone in the game who wanted in so far. The women who don't want to throw our weights are a new issue but if they want control, then we'll see if they can handle it. If they decide to stay with us then, I'll try to work something out. -K
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Borges
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 5:20pm |
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Kevin, Your smart phone may be filled with messages and you may believe that an internet forum (or facebook or whatever you use) is a 'voice'. But it is not the same as the 'voice' of a thoughtful deliberative board. The internet is a frenzied place, meaning is often lost in the noise or the inability to communicate in writing, and it all usually succumbs to Godwin's law in the end. We've seen this again and again on this board. Just because you read a lot of messages doesn't mean there aren't folks out there who don't believe they have been heard. Just because you read a lot of messages doesn't mean you understand the intent motivating the authors. For example, you seem to believe that I have mocked the MWC when, in fact, I do not recall ever doing so. I have mocked many things that are associated with it, like the ridiculous practice of people calling themselves "Masters World Record Holders".
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 5:34pm |
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Carlos-
We are chatting on a board and yet we've never met. I've heard your thoughts for years and yet never heard your voice. In the end, so what? That's how the net work for better or worse. Yes, you were mocking the MWC and all the record holders while claiming to be a member of the Board and that's why the board of advisers concept failed, because a lack of responsibility to the group. But yet, I somehow understood you and changed the wording on the website. I heard your mocking voice and took action. So, I guess its working. I'll work harder to understand the intent motivating the authors ... even the mocking and complaints. -K
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Borges
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The Conrad Dobler of the Highland Games Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Jamaica Status: Offline Points: 2188 |
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 5:42pm |
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The truth is that you hadn't consulted the board for a very long time prior to that exchange. Claiming that as the reason for the change is simply false. And mocking the "Masters World Record Holders" has nothing to do with mocking the MWC. Almost none of those so called records were set at an MWC (perhaps none of them). IIRC, the only connection was that you had changed the verbiage on the MWC site from "Masters records" to "Masters world records".
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 6:02pm |
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Carlos- I know what happened and I am the one who went to the website and deleted the advisory group because of your mocking of us. Simple as that. Claiming that was not the reason for the change is simply false. -K
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Borges
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 6:55pm |
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Yeah, that's the ticket. You made a substantial change that would normally involve consultation with the board which you claim you were still using at the time and it provoked, several months later, an adverse response from a board member so you disbanded the board. People will believe that. Like I said, your skin ain't as thick as Billy's.
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Cheers,
Carlos "Live free or die" |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 7:14pm |
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Carlos-
Yeah, with friends like you who needs enemies. -K
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 7:32pm |
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Carlos-
Have a nice trip. -K
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dWood
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Posted: 3/04/15 at 9:23pm |
I hope because of some malcontents that the womens version of MWC stays with Kevin and SMAI!(ladies you really don't know how good you have it with this established,and tried and true championship!)
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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Soul Eater
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 12:47am |
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Kevin why don't you get one of those "WHO" shirts with the target on it so you will be easier for us who don't see as well to come and bother you or to throw shit at you. You are a true magnet for misery. Just some more advise you don't need. Will this new womens group have anything to do with the MWC or is this a proposal for them to go it alone with out the support of the SMAI? Because I didn't even think of that senerio,concept. That definately puts the ball in their court, wow. When i see you in sept. your more than welcome to have a beer with me Craig and Myles you can Bring that Merl fellow with you.
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 6:27am |
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Kel-
Apparently I'm not too hard to find on the field, but I don't like to let people get behind me with hammers. It goes back to my days as a wrestling coach and tournament director. Its better to face the attack. Come on by and I'll share some of my homemade mead with you. Willey's Rough Rooster is my mead named after my Great Grandfather who used to run all the Cock-Fighting in this part of the Midwest and made his own wine. Be sure to ask my o'l man about his memories of Grampa Willey and he'll tell a story. It will be good to see you again, -K
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 6:45am |
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Oh-
And to your question: There is now a group of Masters women who are planning to do things their own way regardless of the traditional plans I've presented. They want their independence and are actively planning for it. They don't want support from Scottish Masters Athletics. So, here's a chance for them to create their own contest and I won't stand in their way. I'll welcome it. If, however, that doesn't happen then we'll try to work out something to bring them back into our tent. -K
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Silverback
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 8:53am |
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One of the times I did it was at the MWC. Denver. The moment after w my peers was better than the record. To state the obvious, we seem very good as a group at bitching. Still have not found Kevin's post asking for suggestions? Will be interesting to see how many ladies are really represented by this group, I bet a lot of them don't want to jump off the big stage into oblivion.
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Mule
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Soul Eater
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 10:25am |
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Well I'm sure there will be allot of talk at St. Louis, this year. If that is the direction it's going then you need to do what you need to do. Divorce is very much the same thing, sometimes it's better for everyone to part company but there is also a great deal of saddness that something has ended that started out being good. Oh well, is all I got at this point.
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riotboo
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 10:26am |
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As a female master athlete, I find this whole episode cringe inducing.
I've attended the mwc (throwing the 28) and had a blast and would happily continue to do so. I'm happier being awesome rather than "fair." Ymmv |
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 10:34am |
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Hey-
You are welcome to throw at MWC 2015 STL and be awesome. Don't follow the people who talk about unfair. Its not true. Masters women have been throwing 28 since 2003 and its always been fair. -K
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riotboo
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 10:42am |
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We're in agreement...I'm paid and on the start list.
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Soul Eater
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 11:05am |
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I think she is throwing the 21, if she is in the 155 40+ class. Timing is different even though it's 7 pounds.
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 11:12am |
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Kel-
Thanks, I didn't recognize the name she posted under. In Summary - 4 Masters Women's Divisions at MWC: W40-44 still use the 28 - as always W45-49 will use the 21 - new group as of 2014 W50+ will use the 21 - as always W40<155 will use the 21 - new group as of 2015 If you are in the new lightweight group, then its the 21 for you ... sorry. -K
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K Rogers
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 11:28am |
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Hello-
Does that make sense to you Suzanne? Is that right, are you in the new lightweight class? I sometime abbreviate and would like to know if you understand my system. Thanks Kel, -K
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dWood
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Posted: 3/05/15 at 11:44am |
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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Gerry Reynolds wrote: