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Proposed Qualifying Distances MWC

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K Rogers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 5/30/15 at 12:14pm
Hey-

Proposed New Qualifying Distances for MWC 2016

Due to overwhelming numbers of recent entries, we're proposing new qualifying criteria for the Scottish Masters Athletics annual championship competition. To qualify for entry for MWC2016, athletes will need to meet or exceed all 3 qualifying distances for their age group in the 1) Heavy Hammer, 2) Heavy Weight for Distance and 3) Braemar Stone.

This is up for discussion and not final yet, but ... it may be the best way to manage the issue of numbers of entries.


-K
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 1:30pm
Sounds good!  Curious, why those 3 implements?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K Rogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 3:21pm
Jay-

Because throwers are maximally challenged with these traditional Scottish heavy distance implements and they're accurately measured everywhere the same. Caber, Sheaf and WOB are not as consistently, universally measured or scored and so I lack the confidence that we have in the distance events to be used for qualifying athletes to the competition; and they represent a full 1/3 of the competition events which gives a good chance to qualify for everyone. 

Plus after working with the database, I simply have more confidence that these 3 qualifiers will give a more accurate measure of a top level thrower than the height events or caber.

-K
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 4:38pm
I mean this in all seriousness...Really Cool Kevin!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 8:04pm
So, this would in effect cut the current field in "half" (actually it would do a bit more than that, since competitors would need to qualify by all 3 events.) You might get some of the upper end throwers more willing to come out since competing would be a bit more of a "challenge"

I personally would have difficulty qualifying, as my hammer marks aren't where they need to be. (not necessarily a bad thing, as hammer basically automatically takes me out of the competition for the podium anywhere I compete if the field is deep enough.)

I *think* that the marks may be a little too aggressive, but MWC should still get a pretty decent sized field with these in any case.

Maybe as a suggestion - you create a "B" standard for people as well, for the wait lists, so that if the field is not full, you still could add additional throwers who may be below the "A" standard, like the olympics?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 8:22pm
Good points Hapy ,but think it's a step in the right direction( I know 17/20 was a proponent of this years ago and was hammered for suggesting it)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 10:33pm
Kevin, I was wondering some guys don't get to hit the HH at all during a season or get one or two shots at most. Would you be willing to substitute say WOB or something if that were the case?

I ask because over the last couple years I have seen guys who are normally top 5 lightweights or masters way down on the list because a lack of say HH or even open stone? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/30/15 at 11:17pm
 Send out an application for an invitation to anyone who contacts you by e-mail, then see what you get, compare (all) marks, take the ones you want, post it on sites and social media. If they haven't paid with in a required date 3 to 4 months in-front of the game, then in contact the next one's on your list. Make an invite out of it, you would totally be with in your rights, this will stop all the minutia. It would be definitely more of a nail biter for folks to see if they get in. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoelT39 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 7:51am
Its a world championships, only the best should be there. Great idea. More should follow suit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 12:17pm
I think those marks reasonable. and like Joel says...Its a "World Championships"  Having and A standard and B Standard would be way to complicated and cause more work for the MWC.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DStewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 2:52pm
2005 Danny, as I knew the numbers would effect the quality. But Bill Scuggs set the agenda ..... just another case of I was right again. Fans wanna see a competition not some old dude looking for something to do over the weekend and catch the sights with his kids. Sorry, but look in the mirror and ask am I top 10-15 in world, if not cancel your flight. Give the good guys a chance to put a show on.

Too many hacks getting in IMO. All the top guys and gals should be there. The standards set is a start. Coupled with some decent starting heights for WOB and Sheaf, and man like cabers ( plus 125 lbs and 18' ) should help.

DD Stewart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike landrich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Brian Randell Brian Randell wrote:

Kevin, I was wondering some guys don't get to hit the HH at all during a season or get one or two shots at most. Would you be willing to substitute say WOB or something if that were the case?

I ask because over the last couple years I have seen guys who are normally top 5 lightweights or masters way down on the list because a lack of say HH or even open stone? 


Or the thrower could choose Games during the year that have HH....just saying, its not that hard. 
If one cannot be found, AD a Games with hammers. you only need 5 events for it to be legit: 
these 3, caber and your choice of WOB or sheaf
"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and win by experience"-Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrPeanut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by DStewart DStewart wrote:

2005 Danny, as I knew the numbers would effect the quality. But Bill Scuggs set the agenda ..... just another case of I was right again. Fans wanna see a competition not some old dude looking for something to do over the weekend and catch the sights with his kids. Sorry, but look in the mirror and ask am I top 10-15 in world, if not cancel your flight. Give the good guys a chance to put a show on.

Too many hacks getting in IMO. All the top guys and gals should be there. The standards set is a start. Coupled with some decent starting heights for WOB and Sheaf, and man like cabers ( plus 125 lbs and 18' ) should help.

DD Stewart.


Coming from a self proclaimed noob and hack there is no way I should be able to walk in to a Masters World Championship and compete.

For the upper level games there should be some minimum qualifying standards.

Guys like me can do the RennFaire and have a great time at it.



Even a broken old man can learn to throw a hammer. I ain't dead yet!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy68123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 6:25pm
The qualifying standard used to be participation in 5 HG in the year preceding the MWC for the year: e.g. 5 games in the year between 25 Sep 2014 and 25 Sep 2015. Or have competed at a previous MWC.

At some point, the standard was relaxed to having done 5 HG ever. Or have competed at a previous MWC.

The original standard, as I was told, was for ensuring that MWC participants were committed to HG rather than just chasing championships. The open nature of MWC was one of the ideals spoken of at the Calgary MWC: a definite plus.

I recognize that MWC has grown in popularity; yet it still needs to be manageable for the ADs that host the event. I hope a happy medium can be found to maintain its inclusiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawn Baker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 6:42pm
Qualifying numbers make sense (as in just about every other world championship)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swollenknuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5/31/15 at 10:27pm
This is a great step and kudos to you Kevin for putting this out there for discussion.  The only thing I would say is why not go with the LWFD, Light Hammer and Open Stone as they are universally contested at all Highland Games whereas the Heavy Hammer and Braemar are often dropped from the rotation at lots of games.  That also would allow those that have turned 40 during the offseason to still have qualifying marks in all three events (i.e. HWFD).  I definitely agree with your points about the height events and caber though.  Keeping it to the distance events will keep it simpler and less need for adjustments or judgement calls later on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 8:19am
The stone could also be an issue. I see games with 18lb stones and up to 22lb. Maybe you should put a weight on your stone? but I think you have the right idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 8:58am
As stated above several times, it's not really a championship if everyone is included. 

Step in the right direction imo.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 9:33am
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

As stated above several times, it's not really a championship if everyone is included. 

Step in the right direction imo.  

+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K Rogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 10:27am
Steve-

All of our Scottish Masters Records for the BS are using the 22lb stone for men and 13lb for women.

-K
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Snow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 2:49pm
Great idea. 
Events chosen test strength & skill. Standards give median throwers a goal & time to prep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lance Creed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 7:27pm
I like it. This would certainly up the ante in terms of the competition.

One thought if you want to keep it open to everyone on some level: tiered registration like they do for the Boston Marathon. So leave it open to the group who qualify at this level for a certain amount of time and if it isn't filled open it up to people who make 2/3 of these numbers or are within 10% of those standards or something like that. That way you still get the best group possible without sacrificing the size of the event and nobody can complain that they should have a spot. They had a day (or two) to register and it is their fault for not taking initiative. It would also leave the door open for some who haven't posted those sorts of numbers to get in.

That might be a lot of work though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by K Rogers K Rogers wrote:

Steve-

All of our Scottish Masters Records for the BS are using the 22lb stone for men and 13lb for women.

-K


True but it could end up like the Hammer noted above was what I was getting at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/01/15 at 9:22pm
Looking for downhill games with small stones!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 10:21am
As one of the smaller and newer guys in the 40-44 class this year I was upset to hear the proposed standards because I don't think it is a possibility that I can hit them this season. I felt like, "maybe I don't belong on the field with these great throwers" when I read this. My goal is to work as hard as I can and try to beat at least half of the pack. So, today I looked up the results from the 30 guys in my class (all but 2 that weren't on NASGA) and I don't feel so bad now. ONLY 3 of 28 men on the current start list for 40-44 deserve to be on the field in ST. Louis (not sure about the 2 from the Netherlands) Only 3 threw qualifying throws in 2014! I understand, there needs to be standards. But, I know we want more than 3 per flight. I think we will pick up some more top throwers in 2016 if they feel the event is more "legitimate". But do we want to assume that? Do we want to impose a set of standards and have to backpedal next year. After all, this is only the 2nd year that there has been a wait list at 2 very popular locations.
Anyway that's 2 cents from a guy that I'm sure many feel doesn't belong on the field.
Meanwhile I will be working as hard as I can to be the best I can be at mwc this year.
Thanks

P.S.
I respect Kevin very much and will honor his decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 11:07am
It's a world championships! I have no problem with the powers that be setting minimum standards...how about MWC have the standards and another( call it masters nationals?) take all athletes?
JUST BRING IT /

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K Rogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 12:09pm
Glenn-

Yeah, that's a part of the calculus ... but we don't want to retroactively apply a standard. This is all about the future designs for MWC 2016.

We need to make sure the top throwers from other countries get a real chance to make an application to enter MWC 2016 and we have to manage the overall numbers within a reasonable limit. My guess right now is 125 total athletes limit ... but it might have to be set at around 100 if its only a one day event - still undetermined for 2016. 

So, if we are trying to balance the next 250 possible entries expected for the 100 possible openings next year while also providing the opportunity for top level international throwers to get in ... then we have to define a criteria that promotes the top performers above the crowd. The most popular way to manage these types of competitions of course is the qualifying standards... from grade school to Olympics. Its a standard practice to set standards 

If these first proposed standards are too aggressive or too high then we can recalculate to find the best fit. We may not know for certain that they are too high until we see who enters next January.

Let's say ... Champions and Top Qualifiers begin entries for MWC2016 next January.

-K
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsciscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 12:32pm
I totally understand Kevin. I will try my best to hit those standards and if I don't make it at least I'll be a better thrower for trying.
see you soon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 4:17pm
Just looking at the Nasga Database as of today 21 out of the top 25 Masters listed qualified on Braemar.

16-25 On the HWD

14-25  On HH.   

Now I get Ages aren't really divided up on the database but it looks like for a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP we would just about have a class of 15 already half way through the year.

Knowing those 3 events were being measured I know I would put a little more time into those 3 to make sure I qualified, but that is just me. 

If the numbers for 40-44 were modified to say 38-39' on HWD, and say 72' on HH we would have more on the current database qualify. 

That said if Kevin puts qualifying numbers in there that force you to up your game a little to qualify, its better not only for the MWC, but for the sport and for each athlete to try and be better than they are.

Again GREAT start Kevin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/02/15 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Brian Randell Brian Randell wrote:



That said if Kevin puts qualifying numbers in there that force you to up your game a little to qualify, its better not only for the MWC, but for the sport and for each athlete to try and be better than they are.

Again GREAT start Kevin!



I agree
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