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Open System??

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grasshopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Open System??
    Posted: 8/20/15 at 7:47pm
Just had a thought during a discussion with some bro's tonight.   Why don't we use the Open system in America like in Canada and Scotland?  Top X dudes get paid.....nuff said.
"Breathe deeply. Refuse to be weak. Refuse to be sick. Refuse to die. Think strong and you will be." -The Mighty Atom (Yoselle Greenstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/20/15 at 8:13pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 6:46am
Dammit Hapy!  Alright this may seem like trolling but I was being serious.   I actually did a search before hand to see if it had been brought up before and couldn't find anything.   And that Troll looks familiar......hmmmm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Natural Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 8:46am
Amateur athletes outside the USA

It goes back to the amateur vs. professional debate from the turn of the century. Sporting amateurism was a zealously guarded ideal in the 19th century, especially among the upper classes who didn't want to compete with (i.e. lose to) the unwashed masses. For the record, I'm in favor of the "open" idea too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 11:40am
yep

the top X number of athletes can take the the X number of paid slots.  The rest filter into the subsequent classes...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 11:59am
Been saying it for years and years...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by phatmiked phatmiked wrote:

yep

the top X number of athletes can take the the X number of paid slots.  The rest filter into the subsequent classes...

Sorry Mike your point makes too  much common sense to work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Ingram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Been saying it for years and years...

Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 3:30pm
Soooooooooooooooo........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 3:50pm
So get a games,talk the AD into it a do it....think that's the way Chicago started( I believe).. Good idea but don't see it catching on here, too many people would get there panties in a twist( ie; the lower tier pros who are grandfathered into games/ good old boy network...the amtr trophy/medal hunters)... The top amirs and top pros want to throw versus the best and would welcome this IMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WIHeavygames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 4:52pm
This is kind of what we are doing in Wisconsin this year . Open games with 2 qualifying events . Top 12 advance to the full games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/21/15 at 5:00pm
Logistically Tony might be hard to implement(and a decent /fair way would probably be to have a CUT like WIHighland games mentioned above). Would suck to go to a games w/25(which wouldn't be a lot for most games w/ a few classes) pros,As,Bs,Cs,novices throwing 25 in the class would take forever. Might limit new blood who start at bottom before knuckling under and getting better. Do open stone and 56wfd top 10 to 12 advance and eligible for prize money
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel McKim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 6:51am
How's it work with NCAA athletes and making money throwing? That's a small crowd, overall though, as many people start after college.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike landrich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 6:30pm
Would an AM who got paid for an open Games be eligible to still throw AM, or would he now be a pro?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 6:43pm
Ok here's a question for any pros willing to answer...
Say I have an unlimited budget,can invite 12 top US pros( each pro will receive round trip travel money/ hotel for the weekend+ 250 appearance money + meals while at game..so basically besides your time no out of pocket costs). Now we do a qualifier of open stone and 56 wfd..score it. Top 6 proceed on for lwfd,2 hammers,caber,and wob..those top 6 will then be eligible for prize money for final placing( the bottom 6 will not be eligible for prize money BUT could do a challenge money event at end ie; keg toss,caber,stone/farmer walk). How many pros would be up for a situation like this?? Just wondering
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheJeff696 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 8:29pm
2 event qualifier doesn't do justice to anyone, especially with no hammer/height event. I think a 4-5 event qualifying day Sat would be sweet and then a finals Sun with top 8? maybe 6? The other pros just chill if they didn't qualify. 

I'd be down. 

Also Mike Landrich, in an Open system there are no ams and pros. We are all equals, separated only by our performances. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 8:33pm
Jeff the only reason I mentioned a 2 event qualifier ( stone and 56) that's what vie only heard mentioned(at grandfather mtn I believe). Remember talking to Larry Brock bat it when he was starting out and when he first started was a buck strong athlete who had done shot,discus..he said he really had to buckle down to learn the 56 to make the cut( and became quite the good weight tosser)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/22/15 at 8:36pm
It's difficult to fairly compare the US with Scotland and Canada, we have way more athletes wanting to throw at a games...we've done an open style comp at some games, Monterey for one and actually Pleasanton in the women's class but not with any kind of elimination factor. Remember, Scotland is a lot smaller, you don't have to travel as far to get to a games. If you have to travel 100-300 miles only to get eliminated in the qualifying round you're not likely to do that very often. I really don't care about the whole pro vs am debate but I do want to see a playing field that attracts new people as opposed to a group of top level athletes that travel from games to games taking all the prizes. Why do you think Scotland started having two "purses", one for Scots and one (lesser) for non-Scots? Nobody likes seeing the same few guys take all the $...including the lower level "pro's". Random thoughts...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike landrich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/23/15 at 7:29am
Originally posted by TheJeff696 TheJeff696 wrote:



Also Mike Landrich, in an Open system there are no ams and pros. We are all equals, separated only by our performances. 

I understand that if it were a true open system, but if we mix Open Games and the pro/am system would the payment at an open Games affect the Am status in the other system? I only ask because of the nit-picking we see every time something happens in this sport: someone's fiefdom is threatened when someone else gets something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/23/15 at 7:53am
Originally posted by dWood dWood wrote:

Ok here's a question for any pros willing to answer...
Say I have an unlimited budget,can invite 12 top US pros( each pro will receive round trip travel money/ hotel for the weekend+ 250 appearance money + meals while at game..so basically besides your time no out of pocket costs). Now we do a qualifier of open stone and 56 wfd..score it. Top 6 proceed on for lwfd,2 hammers,caber,and wob..those top 6 will then be eligible for prize money for final placing( the bottom 6 will not be eligible for prize money BUT could do a challenge money event at end ie; keg toss,caber,stone/farmer walk). How many pros would be up for a situation like this?? Just wondering



You could fill a field of 12 for this EASILY.

Hell, some pros currently do games that pay less than that.

And a two event qualifier is plenty, several games have done exactly that for many, many, many years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Stewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/23/15 at 11:58am
I think doing some bigger games as open classes would be great. Doing it as a whole I think would be a nightmare for our sport in the USA. The way we have things now in the US is great for growth of the sport. Like Steve said, Scotland and Canada can get away with it due to size and population. We have out grown this way of doing it in the states IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Queen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 12:26am
Originally posted by mike landrich mike landrich wrote:

 
I understand that if it were a true open system, but if we mix Open Games and the pro/am system would the payment at an open Games affect the Am status in the other system? I only ask because of the nit-picking we see every time something happens in this sport: someone's fiefdom is threatened when someone else gets something.

I see this question as the real issue - I've seen throwers refuse to take "Prize Money" because it would make them ineligible for another "Amateur Only" Game they wish to compete in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 5:19am
Payment/nonpayment of Ams is an unenforceable rule. End of story. Ad's are going to do what they want to do...at the end of the day, is it REALLY that big of a deal?

It's antiquated, and really, what difference does it make? Be honest...turning Pro really only REQUIRES one to raise his (shamefully) his hand and say "I am."

If you have the numbers and the network, not really even in that order, you're in. If not, oh well...less Games for you.

There are a LOT of Games some top level Ams could go to and take money from some Pros. Ball don't lie. These same Ams are down to travel...what's the problem with bankrolling that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Duncan McCallum Duncan McCallum wrote:

Payment/nonpayment of Ams is an unenforceable rule. End of story. Ad's are going to do what they want to do...at the end of the day, is it REALLY that big of a deal?

It's antiquated, and really, what difference does it make? Be honest...turning Pro really only REQUIRES one to raise his (shamefully) his hand and say "I am."

If you have the numbers and the network, not really even in that order, you're in. If not, oh well...less Games for you.

There are a LOT of Games some top level Ams could go to and take money from some Pros. Ball don't lie. These same Ams are down to travel...what's the problem with bankrolling that?



This post is a win. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Randell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 8:28am
I have found most that have an issue with an "AM" taking money and being declared "Pro" are those who have no chance of being a pro level thrower and honestly whine that said "AM" in still in their division kicking their buts. 

But I have chemo brain right now so what do I know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:01am
The idiotic rule regarding money and 'am' status is mostly a relic. I removed it from the rule set I wrote (currently in use by several orgs). I convinced Kurt to drop it from the NASGA rules about 10 years ago. The Canadians got rid of it. And so on.

I'm an unashamed free-market capitalist. I piss on all the communist elitists who perpetrated that 'no play for pay' crime on the world back in the days when that evil empire known as the AAU screwed athletes for fun and profit. I feel similarly about the NCAA and their idiotic rules. If you're good at some athletic pursuit, good enough to get paid, then no one should be able to prevent you from making a bit of coin. Period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:24am
While I've thrown in Canada at amtr and masters events -I liked the open format but honestly as the US scottish games circuit is spoiled because we have so many athletes competing and they get them for free. Most games underfund athletics and as an AD never made any money(always paid out of my pocket to supply athletes with food/shirts/water/equipment that the festival couldn't or wouldn't supply) now your going to ask the festival for prize money. The bigger/established games will be OK but smaller games might suffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

The idiotic rule regarding money and 'am' status is mostly a relic. I removed it from the rule set I wrote (currently in use by several orgs). I convinced Kurt to drop it from the NASGA rules about 10 years ago. The Canadians got rid of it. And so on.

I'm an unashamed free-market capitalist. I piss on all the communist elitists who perpetrated that 'no play for pay' crime on the world back in the days when that evil empire known as the AAU screwed athletes for fun and profit. I feel similarly about the NCAA and their idiotic rules. If you're good at some athletic pursuit, good enough to get paid, then no one should be able to prevent you from making a bit of coin. Period.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WIHeavygames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:37am
Honestly I'm a big believer in the best performance deserves the best reward. At our games (Wi Highland games) we invite a number of pros and pay their travel etc . But we also invite anyone to compete , women, men , masters of both sexes with appropriate weights . Generally the pros win the prize money but it's not unheard of for a really good amateur to get in the money . As for the getting paid makes you a pro , plenty of people win money in local golf tourneys , or whatever . Doesn't confer pro status .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/24/15 at 11:39am
Originally posted by dWood dWood wrote:

Ok here's a question for any pros willing to answer...
Say I have an unlimited budget,can invite 12 top US pros( each pro will receive round trip travel money/ hotel for the weekend+ 250 appearance money + meals while at game..so basically besides your time no out of pocket costs). Now we do a qualifier of open stone and 56 wfd..score it. Top 6 proceed on for lwfd,2 hammers,caber,and wob..those top 6 will then be eligible for prize money for final placing( the bottom 6 will not be eligible for prize money BUT could do a challenge money event at end ie; keg toss,caber,stone/farmer walk). How many pros would be up for a situation like this?? Just wondering
 
Coming from a piss poor ostone thrower, I would still do this. I would prob advocate a hammer qual as well, however, I'm "good" at hammer so I'm a bit biased. Shrug.
 
 
 
 
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