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Caber Scoring

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Juli Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Juli Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Caber Scoring
    Posted: 3/24/16 at 10:57pm
This has been a head scratcher for me for a couple of years...

If you "no-height" the WOB, you get a 0 for a score due to the fact that the event calls for you to throw the implement OVER the bar.

If you "no-height" the sheaf, you get a 0 for a score due to the fact that the event calls for you to throw the implement OVER the bar.

If you do not TURN the caber (the purpose of the event), you rely on the side judge to give you a score in degrees that is slightly higher than the next guy. Why? Why isn't an un-turned Caber a 0? You have failed to accomplish the point of the event. It is the equivalent of a no-height.

 Isn't it?

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You have to stop doing that Juli, if it worked we'd all be doing it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 6:28am
I have argued for many years that the caber should be scored this way. 

It makes sense and would eliminate the silly degree scoring.  Everyone that doesn't turn it, splits last place points.  Easy.   

I haven't really heard a good argument against it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rob meulenberg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 6:43am
^^^

yep.  That's because there is no good argument against it.  It's pretty simple...caber is supposed to be hard.  

Pick a big stick that maybe half of the field can turn.  It it works out that way, great.  If no one turns it, chop off a tiny bit and do it again.  

That avoids shoot out sticks too.  That's just as bad as degrees (i.e. 12:01 vs 12:05 cf. 86* vs. 82*)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 9:55am
Originally posted by rob meulenberg rob meulenberg wrote:

^^^

yep.  That's because there is no good argument against it.  

Exactly correct! This is almost precisely how caber should be scored. No turn, no score, split the remaining points. 

But it should go even further. Because I also strongly believe that judges should be limited to 15 minute increments (rounded away from 12:00) in the turn scores they can award (although I would personally prefer 30 minute increments). This is because I believe that ties are very important in aggregate scoring. And that two competitors who are 'close' should have their final standing decided by second (or even third) best attempt because that is generally a better indicator of a stronger performance. I would prefer the winner to be the one with three 11:30 turns not the one with a single 11:35 and two no tosses.

This is the same reason that I have argued for measuring the distance events to the lowest whole inch (although I had to settle for the lowest half inch in the rule set that I wrote since I couldn't get enough of the other folks on board with this notion).


Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlDargie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 2:26pm
Not my best event and would lose points as a result, but I hate being side judged and side judging others.  Doc Rob - Maybe we can make this change in the North East games.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Ingram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

Originally posted by rob meulenberg rob meulenberg wrote:

^^^

yep.  That's because there is no good argument against it.  

Exactly correct! This is almost precisely how caber should be scored. No turn, no score, split the remaining points. 

But it should go even further. Because I also strongly believe that judges should be limited to 15 minute increments (rounded away from 12:00) in the turn scores they can award (although I would personally prefer 30 minute increments). This is because I believe that ties are very important in aggregate scoring. And that two competitors who are 'close' should have their final standing decided by second (or even third) best attempt because that is generally a better indicator of a stronger performance. I would prefer the winner to be the one with three 11:30 turns not the one with a single 11:35 and two no tosses.

This is the same reason that I have argued for measuring the distance events to the lowest whole inch (although I had to settle for the lowest half inch in the rule set that I wrote since I couldn't get enough of the other folks on board with this notion).


I like the 15 minute increment idea. I'm going to suggest we implement that this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali.G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 5:45pm
You can't even score the caber correctly in north America, it should be scored from the minute hand not the hour hand, 11:55 whats that? 1pm = 5 minutes off in scotland. 10am = 10 minutes too. 3pm = 15mins in scotland. I don't know who told you how to judge the caber from the start but I can guess it was from a none thrower. just saying haha.  





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy68123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/25/16 at 9:08pm
The event is called "caber toss", not "caber turn" or "caber flip".  By contrast, "Weight Over Bar" or "Weight for Height" would require successful completion of a height by definition.

Of course, any scored turn beats degrees from side judging.  I know a few ADs disdain side judging and have all the no turns split the remaining points in a tie for last place.  Other ADs have successfully used protractors, inclinometers, or digital angle readers (Harbor Freight) as tools to more consistently side judge.

However, in my (now starting 10 years) experience I've thrown alongside many new throwers, especially women (for whom the caber selection is usually very small) who are laying hands on a caber for the first time, learning how to pick and toss it.  Personally, I think it sucks for a thrower who can successfully pick and toss the caber, but maybe not turn it, to receive the same points as a person who can't pick it, let alone get a toss.  Such scoring can pretty much make the caber a non-event in many divisions.

Maybe a different way to score would be to 1) Top points are awarded for turns, scored on the appropriate clock face, 2) If no side judging, then tosses get the next tier of points, regardless of the angle, 3) Picks with no toss get the next tier, and finally 4) No picks gets the lowest placing for points.  Another variation on this idea would have each thrower's caber attempts be part of a total caber score,  not just the best of the three.  This method would encourage consistency from the good throwers and give additional incentive for newer or less accomplished throwers to improve.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

P.S.  Cabers can be so hard to come by and preserve in many parts of the country that the thought of cutting an otherwise perfectly good one so that someone in the field can turn it seems wasteful and disappointing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/16 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Ali.G Ali.G wrote:

You can't even score the caber correctly in north America, it should be scored from the minute hand not the hour hand, 11:55 whats that? 1pm = 5 minutes off in scotland. 10am = 10 minutes too. 3pm = 15mins in scotland. I don't know who told you how to judge the caber from the start but I can guess it was from a none thrower. just saying haha.  

Also an excellent method. This gives a range of 16 scores from perfect to least perfect turn whereas my suggestion of using 15 minute increments with our American system gives 13. Not much daylight between the two approaches other than the 'character' of awarding a 'time'.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/26/16 at 6:30pm
Hold beer at 45 degrees keep drinking yell your scores to score keeper. Boom done
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ali.G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/27/16 at 4:50pm
If you do not toss cabers there is no reason to want a score just be thankful there is someone standing watching at the side, Rule for caber is= only the best shall toss a caber, so if everyone tosses a caber  in the comp, obviously they need a bigger one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/27/16 at 5:10pm
+1
JUST BRING IT /

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/27/16 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Sammy68123 Sammy68123 wrote:

 Personally, I think it sucks for a thrower who can successfully pick and toss the caber, but maybe not turn it, to receive the same points as a person who can't pick it, let alone get a toss.  

They both fail at the event in my (and most peoples) opinion.  I've had a game here and there where I haven't turned a stick.  I deserve last place points for that.  

Are there people that really want points for failing to turn a caber?  Yikes....    

Originally posted by Ali.G Ali.G wrote:

If you do not toss cabers there is no reason to want a score just be thankful there is someone standing watching at the side, Rule for caber is= only the best shall toss a caber, so if everyone tosses a caber  in the comp, obviously they need a bigger one.

^^ THIS.  100%.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote throw50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 8:20am
so where are the official "rules" and who decides to change them? I think I asked this before, and I was told its up to the individual groups or ADs?
Doesn't that mean that this is a easily implemented (pun) change...if you are an AD or a member of a group, you can just change it to fit your belief in caber scoring

In my opinion, there should be one set of rules, like the list here, and changes could be democratic...2/3rds majority of all NASGA members. It would be simple to champion a change, just post it and get it voted on in a finite amount of time. If NASGA members feel the need to have a rules committee, people could volunteer and get voted on here as well.

Don't they do something similar in Canada?

As social media slowly takes on the role of distribution of information on games, one of the key roles of this site I can see evolving would be a central repository of scores and rules
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 8:26am
NASGA is not, nor will it be, a governing body. 

I will attempt to implement this rule in games that I judge this year, but the decision is ultimately up to each individual athletic director, and will remain that way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote throw50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 9:59am
ok, so is there one governing body?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 10:08am
Originally posted by throw50 throw50 wrote:

ok, so is there one governing body?


Nope. 

And by almost all accounts, there never will be.  Games/Festivals and their Athletic Directors are all unique, and most would see no reason to have to conform to a particular set up.  And they're right. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeremy Robinson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 1:32pm
There are two types of scores for events; those measured discreetly, and those measured (somewhat) continuously. The preferred measurement for scoring two individuals in a competition is continuous because it is less likely to result in a tie. Scots don't like ties. Vertical events are measured with a crossbar (discreetly) because it was very difficult back in 1836 to measure height continuously (the best type of data) because aliens hadn't given us lasers and accelerometers yet. Since angle and time can be estimated by the eye rather easily by folks who are anything close to sober, it follows that continuous measurement is a perfectly suitable method for distinguishing the throws of any two individuals, thereby reducing the chance of a tie and making the event MORE competitive. Scoring caber discreetly and sharing points would be like scoring a difficult race simply by whether one finished or not and handing out medals of completion at the end. That would be decidedly un-Scottish. Also, how do you expect sensible folks to gamble with scoring like that? My point is that the goal of tossing the caber is NOT to turn it, but to do it even slightly better than the other girl/guy. The event truly serves no "purpose" and that is exactly why we do it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Jeremy Robinson Jeremy Robinson wrote:

Scoring caber discreetly and sharing points would be like scoring a difficult race simply by whether one finished or not and handing out medals of completion at the end.


In your example, everyone that finishes the race (turns the caber), is scored, in the appropriate order.  If you crash and can't complete the race, you receive zero points.  Same with the caber imo.


Originally posted by Jeremy Robinson Jeremy Robinson wrote:

That would be decidedly un-Scottish.


And yet the only Scot in the thread said nothing of the sort.  Alistair? 


Originally posted by Jeremy Robinson Jeremy Robinson wrote:

My point is that the goal of tossing the caber is NOT to turn it, but to do it even slightly better than the other girl/guy.


I couldn't disagree with this more.  But hey, what do I know?

If anyone thinks that winning the caber with a degree score could be the goal in any scenario, then I'd politely invite you to go ice fishing and hope you fall in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/28/16 at 3:23pm
If anyone is stupid enough to believe that a judge can accurately judge the difference between an 11:01 and an 11:00 score (much less an 11:01 and a 1:00) I have some beachfront property in Barstow that I'm looking to unload. Continuous is a big word that has no meaning here.

Furthermore, Scots love ties so much that they still refuse to sever theirs with the Queen.
Cheers,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeremy Robinson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/29/16 at 6:53am
I can definitely see what you all are saying. I've never wanted anything less than a 12:00 turn. I just think that for the sake of judging a competition, more ways of scoring would necessarily be more effective than fewer ways of scoring. I guess I'll have to get my fishing pole and move to Barstow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoss1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 8:32am
I'm a newb to the highland games and caber is tough!  i really like the idea of tiered scoring as the angles are all a guessing game to all the side judges that i've encountered (even other athletes).  as a newb i like the idea of getting some points for a successful pick an pull because that is an accomplishment worthy of points.  I think that sammy has a great idea for caber.

-points awarded to successful flips (as to the 12 o'clock scoring routine)
-the remaining points given to degreed flips regardless of degree or a 2/3 to 1/3 split between those above 45# and those at or less than 45# (everyone can see a 45# attempt)
-no points for unsuccessful picks or pick and drops.


Edited by hoss1 - 3/30/16 at 1:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 8:59am
No offense intended, but picking a caber and getting a pull on it is a reward in and of itself.  

The participation award for the caber and HG is being out on a field competing in the best sport on the planet while wearing a kilt.  In other words, being awesome.

I totally support a system of no turn, split last position points like in WOB and Sheaf.  

I also thing the Scots style of scoring makes waaaaay more sense and is much more practical and easier to implement for the judge and AD.

People get all up in arms about maintaining tradition, and then we somehow drift away in some very fundamental aspects like this.  We should ask ourselves "WWtSD?"


Edited by phatmiked - 3/31/16 at 8:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 9:51am
Originally posted by hoss1 hoss1 wrote:

the idea of getting some points for a successful pick an pull because that is an accomplishment worthy of points.


No, it isn't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 10:16am
My first year competing I never even got a pick..... I accepted no points because I didn't deserve any... I worked hard with a great coach (John Oddan) and the next season I was able to pick and turn a caber! It becomes more of an accomplishment if you work for it! Since then caber has always been my go to event and when I was down in overall points I could score well in caber pull out a win.

We compete in a strength sport... success should be measured by ones ability... the sport shouldn't change to meet your inability to perform, You should develop your strength and technique to get better at the sport.

"Get Stronger!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Pogany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 11:07am


We compete in a strength sport... success should be measured by ones ability... the sport shouldn't change to meet your inability to perform, You should develop your strength and technique to get better at the sport.

"Get Stronger!"


^^^^ This .....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoss1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Originally posted by hoss1 hoss1 wrote:

the idea of getting some points for a successful pick an pull because that is an accomplishment worthy of points.


No, it isn't. 

i'm just saying that if the remainder of the points are going to go somewhere (people that didn't flip the pole) then a least they should go to a person that actually controlled the caber and got a pull.  not to the people that didn't pick or control the caber.   So like the WOB and sheaf, the remainder of the points are split between the unsuccessful, i think the remainder of the caber points should go to the ones that at least had a successful pull split between those at or below 45# and visually above 45# and not someone who dropped it.

not that this conversation really matters at allLOL   We are going to abide by the rules of the game and tradition, and this probably isn't going to change/refine the rules of the games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/30/16 at 8:54pm
Leave no doubt turn every stick thay are all just pieces of wood stop asking for leniency. Not all judges are created equal don't leave it up to them. but in new england we have some hard judging and we thrive on it. If hapy gives you 89 degrees on a caber or a fiffer stop babying it wipe your tears and 12 every stick you ever pick up. Picking a stick is the easiest thing ever done. Three 12s is a manes game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/16 at 10:53am
The point of a competition is not to find out who is 5th, it is to find out who is 1st. Differentiating between people who fail to pick and those who fail to turn is arguably never important in figuring out who is best of the competition.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigirish01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3/31/16 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:

The point of a competition is not to find out who is 5th, it is to find out who is 1st. Differentiating between people who fail to pick and those who fail to turn is arguably never important in figuring out who is best of the competition.


figuring out who is the best of the Worst....lol
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