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Partial Squats

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thegnome View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Partial Squats
    Posted: 10/01/07 at 8:14am

The next area I'm hoping to focus on in throwing is leg drive.  Since the throwing positions seem more similar to a partial squat is there more benifit to cranking up the weight (relatively speaking of course) and doing 1/2 to 3/4 depth versus typical below parallell squats? I'm usually pretty particular about squat depth, but is this one application where "cheating" may actually be benificial? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/07 at 8:38am

My coaches in high school and college both said that is were the power is, and going low was a waist. However I have two very bad knees now may be from all of the heavy poundings from that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/07 at 12:30pm
In my opinion, I think you have to do both. When I first started I thought
this was true, but found that the range of motion that you go through with a
1/4 squat just isn't wide enough to truly generate deep power. Once I made
sure that I was going deeper, my max squat weight went way down but I felt
that it improved my throws, especially stone.

I think I would rather lift smaller weight and be springy out of the bottom, I
found it was hard to really get that change of direction with the smaller
range of motion of a 1/4 squat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Sim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/07 at 12:49pm

Box or bench Squats are a good explosive power excercise that I did well past college. Now that i'm lifting heavy again they're once again included in my schedule. Just be sure not to stop and rest on the bench or ever "bounce" off of the bench as the spinal compression isn't pretty. Slow on the negative and explode once you feel the bench.

Good mornings are nice too, don't forget the back side has alot to do w/ explosive power.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/07 at 1:32pm
Hapy is dead on - most important aspect of our sport is how quickly you can reverse your dip/sink and explode up. Nothing slow except the occasional deadlift grinders for power. A better us of your gym time is to do front/rear squats (mostly fronts) w. a light enough weight that you can move quickly( go deep and shallow- mix it up).Lunges and step ups are great mixers. Jumpsquats are even better. When we throw, we JUMP w. weights - so practice that way. Olympics are key - but Ryan says jerks and jumpshrugs are vital.....I believe him......just be careful and eeaase into these violent movements - start jumpsquats w. just the bar and when you can spring up and down like a yo-yo for a set of 10 - add 20lbs and start over.Measure your vertical and broadjumps and watch throws go up as they go up. Quality NOT quantity.EXPLODE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/07 at 3:59am
I did some couch squats last night.  I went way down deep and paused for 10 molasses cookies and a large milk and then powered up for a strong one.  I then walked that off with a trip back to the kitchen to loosen up.  Came back for another deep rep and paused for 6 Hersheys bars, krackle and 5 regulars.  It was the fourth quarter by then and training night was over.  Wheeew.  I must be in shape, my legs do not feel sore today.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will barron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/07 at 4:04am
10 cookies and 6 chocalate bars...wow...what a metabolism - you eat like
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJurkoic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/07 at 4:40am
Myles, not only are you a great thrower but you're a really funny guy. You kill me. If I had that training regimen, I'd be spherical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/07 at 6:10am
Tonight I do chest.  I lay back in the chair and half and pile the Hersheys up on my chest and work the little wrappers.  Makes Cheryl insane.  I think it will be a pure night, that means no cross training with a Krackle or goodbar.  Pure chocolate.  I might cross over to the dark side as I read that is good for you.  And my milk of course.  Don't you love when Halloween is coming.  Time to trick or treat again with my little girls.  The pirate is back.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/07 at 6:44am
I tell my kids the Almond Joys are mine or they don't get back in the house.......HEY! My youngest is 14 and won't be trick r treating anymore....waaaaagh.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/07 at 9:44am
My oldest is will be 4 by halloween so this should be his first real year. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/07 at 10:39am

Who says you need the kid?  The big pirate does make sure the girls get the correct amount of booty in the bag for the walk home. 

So I guess we figured out the partial squat.  By the way, I do partial fronts even in the rack sometimes after doing the full movement.  Go over and add a few more plates.  It is fun.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaleGehman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/07 at 3:23pm

Mr. Baab,

I hereby am notifiying you that I am resigning as Treasurer of the Mike Baab Fan Club (there's no money to count anyway) because I am pursuing another similar opportunity with the Myles Wetzel Fan Club. Having now met you both, and seeing Myles workout regimen and it's success (clobbered me at Kansas), plus, well, he got first, you know, I feel I have to pursue this opportunity. Thank you for the experience. Sincerely (sort of).

Now, seriously, how low do you other old guys go? The doc told me about 6 weeks ago to knock off parrallel squats, and stay 30 or so degrees above parrallel. My knees have never been an issue, until the last few months, and they've been pretty sore. How low do you go? How much explosive work do you do? And what cautions do you have about the knees?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/07 at 4:09pm

Dale,

I'm not sure I qualify as "old", but 41 might do for your purposes.  I still always go well below parallel, often rock-bottom ATG, and I very rarely have any knee issues and nothing that lasts for more than a few days.  The only caveat is that you shouldn't literally bounce out of a rock bottom position with a heavy weight or you will irritate your knees.  A quick reversal is great but it has to be muscular, not mechanical - i.e. no "bounce". 

The only other time I have irritated my knees was experimenting with bench (not box) squats done to a couple of inches ABOVE parallel with a very fast reversal.  This was a key movement of the East German throwers during the competitive and pre-competitive period, so there must be some merit to them.  (An old coach of mine personally watched Udo Beyer do two sets of about 6 reps of these very explosively to quarter squat depth with at least 800 pounds the day before he set a world record back in 1983.)  I personally found these to put a lot of strain directly on the knee, something I never feel when going below parallel.  As a result, I simply stopped doing them, so this might have changed as I became used to the movement or if I had done them in a less explosive manner.  I definitely don't think these should be the only form of squats you do, particularly in the off season.  Remember that Mac Wilkins and Al Fuerbach were huge proponents of full ATG Olympic squats, claiming they resulted in much better jumping results than half or quarter squats.  Full squats also have the advantage of keeping the quads and hamstrings reasonably balanced, which is important for both explosiveness and injury prevention.  They also work the VMO (the teardrop-shaped muscle just above the knee), which greatly enhances knee stability and is supposedly important during jumping movements, like few other exercises. 

By "explosive work" I assume you mean plyometrics.  While I didn't do too much of this type of work this summer, this was simply because I was spending my (limited) time during the precious Canadian summer months trying to improve my technique (with very limited success to date).  I still think this type of work is extremely valuable and fun if you have the time and do not have any preexisting knee issues.  The key is to ease into this type of work, progress gradually, and be careful about overdoing it even once you are in shape. 

There are many different movements, so most people should be able to find at least a couple that they can do without hurting themselves.  Bounding/sprinting up stairs and jumping up onto a single high box (recently discussed in another thread) are probably the two varieties involving the least impact.  Jumping over 3-5 hurdles in a row is an advanced form that is a blast to do when and if you get good at it, but should only be attempted by the healthy and mobile/athletic. 

I look forward to seeing you again next year.

Peter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/07 at 4:56pm

I saw this picture of an Olympic weightlifter, which I believe was taken at the recent World Championships, and thought it would be reasonably appropriate given the subject of the thread.  I don't know the name of the athlete (I copied it from Mike Burgener's site), but he has obviously done tons of Olympic-style ATG front and back squats (and I can pretty much guarantee he has never done ANY leg extensions or hack squats!).  BTW, I believe that's at least 374 lbs. on the bar...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaleGehman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/07 at 1:53am

Peter,

I've been doing Oly cleans and snatch for a lot of years, and I don't have abs like that. What do you think I'm doing wrong?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaleGehman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/07 at 2:05am

Peter,

The reason I'm asking is it's becoming increasing clear to me that it's the explosive capability I'm lacking in. Since High School and college, I was a lousy shot putter, and good at discus and hammer. Now, my best marks, relative to the best guys, Baab, Wetzel, Milton, etc. in my class, are the WFD and hammers. The more purely explosive events, WOB, Sheaf, and stone are lagging. So how can I build that pop without jeopardizing my knee health? My knees are healthy, solid, and strong, but the strain of squats was causing pain in the patella. It sounds like, from this and another thread, that starting easy is my best bet. I've never done plyos. Any recomendation for the oly lifts, to combine explosive lifts, with plyos or other things that would give me more pop? Like I said, I do regular cleans and dumbell snatches typically. Plan B is just grow more fast twitch muscles, which doesn't seem like it's going to happen . Thanks, Peter, you've got a great background in the science here.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/07 at 2:38am
One really great movement you can do is flip a big tire (i do some strongman comps) this is not just good for power and leg drive but works everything, if you can find a good tire anywhere from 600-800 pounds (you want something you can flip 10+ times consecutive flips) 2 to three sets of that will really kick your but.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/07 at 2:45am

Dale,

First, maybe you do have abs like that but just cannot see them very well.  That's certainly my problem!

Second, if you are already doing some Olympic-type lifts (assuming they are being done with reasonable basic technique, which I am pretty sure is true in your case), the only recommendation I would make is focussing on very low-rep sets, done very explosively, always choosing extra height or better form over extra weight, for multiple sets, done first in your lifting workouts.  If you are not working out in a basement (like I am this winter, unfortunately), I really like hang snatches, done either with a minimal dip at the finish or with an alternating split for 2-4 reps.  I think these are even more transferable to many throwing events than power cleans and are almost impossible to cut short and still get, unlike cleans (which nevertheless still have their place).  Just make sure to avoid having to press the weight out, which defeats the point of the exercise.

If you are worried about your knees, but they are generally healthy, I suspect that if you start slowly, progress gradually, and be careful about your volume you will be fine.  I would think very few people would have issues with sprinting hard up two or more stairs at a time, and box jumps are very low impact - just don't push the box height too high to avoid excessive knee flexion (which might or might not irritate your knees, I have no idea) and remember that the stair sprints are not being done for cardio. 

Easing into hard sprinting would also be great and is not hard on the knees.  Make sure you are fully warmed up before these and ease into them over a few sessions or else you will definitely get very sore and quite probably injure yourself in some way.  A 30m sprint from a standing start is a key test of pure speed and explosiveness.  Your sprints should vary from 20m to about 60m, although usually the longer ones would be "accelerations", gradually building your speed up to a max effort for the last 20-30m.

Speaking of tests of explosiveness, another key movement that would be perfect for you (and is a key part of many T&F throwers training) is "heaving", i.e. tossing a shot, stone, medicine ball, or pud up and over your head behind you, much like a WOB but focussing on distance not height.  Like the WOB, long levers are a significant advantage in obtaining great results in this movement, but the physical benefits of the movement are the same for everyone.

Let me know if you (or anyone) has any questions etc.

 



Edited by Peter Ingleton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/07 at 3:18am
Dale, I have to be careful with the volume, I am not a truck like Baab.  His joints are twice mine, another reason he can do so much volume and carry all that mass.  Thank you much for the compliments.  I go all the way down and many times stay there for a pause and then explode up.  I also put the bar up front a lot.  Ice and more ice.  I am responsible for the polar cap receeding, not fossil fuel.  Sorry.
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