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Another View of the Proposed Qualifiers |
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K Rogers
Postaholic Joined: 7/27/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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Posted: 7/21/15 at 11:54am |
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So, here's the table again ... both light and heavy flavors.
These are the median values of our Scottish Masters Historical Dataset and I believe this is a good place to introduce the task of qualifying the Masters athletes based on performance.
The medians represent the midpoint of a range of recorded throws and are probably achievable by at least half the population of Masters athletes. I'll be interested to see how the results from the upcoming event in St. Louis compares in light of this proposal ... and I reserve the right to adjust the Qualifiers and how they are applied based on that comparison. Just an idea, -K
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K Rogers
Postaholic Joined: 7/27/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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Also, as a physical observation of the aging phenomena ...
Notice the 1 foot per year decline in the Heavy Hammer and similar rates in the other events too. Dang, -K
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Hapy
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Sammy68123
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As I look at the median distances and compare them to my own performances, I can't help but wonder if a "qualifying total" might be a way to go (similar to powerlifting).
By using a total of all the distances, potential competitors would not suffer as much from events in which they don't meet the current median (ones they're not as good at) if they exceeded the medians in other events (ones they are better at). As I've mentioned before, I can appreciate the need to have a manageable field of athletes at MWC that won't exceed the ability of future host sites to stage the games. At the same time, I'm concerned about losing the inclusiveness that has always been a strength of MWC, one that has contributed to its increased popularity over the last 3-4 years. As others have said, if MWC becomes something that only the most elite athletes can qualify for, it will likely lose its popularity. JMHO. |
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Teresa Merrick
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K Rogers
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Teresa-
I don't think a total is as informative or as valuable as the 6 medians. These 6 medians can inform an athlete where his or her weaknesses are in comparison to the population of his or her peers and that may be helpful for training. They define a good throw - "for a guy your age". They recognize the natural rate of decline for all of us and are as fair for a guy at 40 as they are for a gal at 50 because its the median of 'your' age group for over a decade. What you'll see is an effect like the field records or the World records where it means something to a thrower to finally hit a Masters Qualifier. It will be a moment of pride to qualify by throwing over the qualifying distance for any and especially over all the Qualifiers. And of course, a real Champion has no problem throwing over all the Qualifiers. We are in the business of making Champions. As far as inclusiveness, this idea includes everyone who has access to a computer. There are no invites. There is no NASGA Ranking. Even people who have never heard of or seen the NASGA database or message board can qualify for the meet. It includes everyone and helps us put the top throwers on the field for the best matchups which always make for a better challenge and competition and championship. The medians are the 50% point in the range of throws and that is not as you imply "only the most elite athletes can qualify for" ... so your ideas about popularity are likely exaggerated. The people who want to be included will always be included. If you can't throw the Qualifiers then how about volunteering to be a judge or scorekeeper or pull a tape? Everyone can be at the party and it can be as inclusive as you care to make it. Popularity is in the eyes of the beholder while the quality of the competition is in the eyes of the champions. -K
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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I guess that depends on whether its value is as an actual World Championship or a "masters gathering". Probably enough room in the world for both, but if it's going to have the words "World Championship" in them, maybe a -little- bit of a qualifying standard should be applied. |
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K Rogers
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Again -
For example, if I looked at 200 of the Masters throws selected by age group and recorded only at the Masters World Championships during the 14 years of competition, in either light or heavy events in our population of very age specific data - then this median value would be the distance of the throw ranked 100th. That means there is a strong probability that half (50%) the population in that age group can throw over the distance. So, that's not what we mean by "elite" and its also fairly inclusive of a large fraction of the athlete throws and population. The elite athletes are the throwers of the the top quartile or 25% of the selected throws and that would be defined by the midpoint between the median and the best throw. Now, that would be a way to qualify only the elite throwers ... but we're not suggesting that. -K |
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K Rogers
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Sean-
We are both the actual Championship and the Gathering. Not everyone thinks we can do both, but so far we have been. And ... not everyone agrees with my ideas, but I'm trying to do both. To balance the concepts and still get done during one weekend is the newest challenge. Plus, ... with no membership requirements, no membership fees, no invites, no NASGA rankings and no major sponsorship except for the City of Inverness, Scotland and the Highland Council. -K |
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an "all inclusive" kind of guy. I don't think people should be shut out, but I want them to step up. Heavy events shouldn't be someone's bucket listed "Participant" badge. You want to do it? Respect it enough to train. Have some pride about trying to be the best kind of athlete YOU can be.
Qualifiers are targets, not walls. Look at Enumclaw. Wally set the bar. Made people jockey for position. It didn't make the Claw LESS popular. It made the throwers better. Kevin, you're doing good work my man. Keep it up. |
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agm_
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Speaking as someone who won't be hitting those numbers anytime soon, and will therefore not qualify, I'd say it's fair, and the right thing to do. Great work, Kevin.
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throw50
Groupie Joined: 9/09/13 Location: Niagara Falls Status: Offline Points: 65 |
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I think my opinion should get bonus points based on two things:
One, I missed making the start list for this year’s MWC, because I didn’t know registration had a small window Two, My numbers this year would meet the proposed qualifying distances That being said..my opinion on the matter is….THANK YOU! Thank you, to Kevin and all the ADs for doing ANY games, big or small. There are so many challenges, so many moving parts and so many individual crisis in every games, I applaud and thank everyone who is inspired to provide a games to compete at. I am completely fine with not making it this year…there was a registration period and I missed it. That’s completely reasonable. Complete Disclosure, Kevin was going to work with me to try to get everyone in, including me and I had to decline, as I rescinded my vacation request when I didn’t make the original list As far as proposed qualifying distances, that’s understandable too. I understand trying to manage the number of athletes. I have a T&F background, and big meets with the kinds of number of athletes that MWC will field have significantly more, paid, officials and costs a whole lot more than MWC, and those meets don’t run very well. I think I am a good, real world example of the kind of athlete that will end up “just making” the MWC start list if the standards are implemented. I am a three-time Masters National Champion in T&F, I’ve been doing Highland for 3 years, only in the Masters division, I train for it and practice. I don’t train as hard as I could and I don’t practice every day. I’ve competed in roughly 12 games a year, from big to boutique. I take it seriously enough that I try to perform at my best, but I also don’t take it so seriously that I don’t cheer for my competitors, and try to help them perform well also. I try to engage the crowd and be available to entertain and inform them, yet I always make sure I am respecting the AD by being alert and aware of the events and the time table. I am 21 on NASGA as of this, with a few below me that should be above. I am fully aware that plenty of athletes don’t post or post numbers infrequently, and if they did I wouldn’t be surprised or ashamed to fall to #30 or so. I am not a natural athlete, but I’ve been given size and strength and I try to use those gifts well. And if I don’t make the qualifying standard, I will reach out to any AD who makes an “all-comes” games that weekend, and I will try as hard as with any competition and take as much pride in my performance. We should all push to raise the pinnacle of the sport higher, as it causes the base to grow exponentially. I love competing with my friends, pushing myself for PRs and flingin’ weight around while all my body parts still want to, mostly, cooperate. Thank you Kevin |
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throw50
Groupie Joined: 9/09/13 Location: Niagara Falls Status: Offline Points: 65 |
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...and then I fell to #22 :)
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K Rogers
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Hey-
A 3-time Masters National Champion in T&F with 3 years of HG experience and travels to over 10 games per year sounds like a good model of a MWC Qualifier to me... regardless of your NASGA ranking, that ranks pretty well with me. Good luck in your training, -K
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Bill Boyd
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While I am 100% in agreement with Kevin's qualifying standards, I am also 100% in favor of just a big ole Masters gathering to meet other HE throwers from around the country. In all honesty, if you are 40+ and its really, really important to you to become a world champion, then I find that funny and you could achieve that much easier through powerlifting in one of their 45 federations. My two cents.
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dWood
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Your logic doesn't make sense..if you want to be a world champion go to powerlifting???you seem to forget that some people are driven and determined to compete versus the bedtime. It is the masters world championships..having a gathering throwing for fun,shooting the shit,having some beers with comp is great but your logic befuddles me
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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Silverback
Postaholic Plow Mule Joined: 8/29/04 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 4276 |
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Hey Bill why is 40 plus so old and am I supposed to just loose all athletic goals in the games when I do? Why? And why should I go to another sport, for it to be easy? What if I want to win a MWC in this sport? Not everyone folds their tent at 40 and let me tell you, if it is not important to win a world championship, you won't. It won't fall into your lap regardless of who you are, ask one and see.
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Mule
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C. Smith
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Bill catching some unnecessary flack for his opinion, imo.
It isn't... at all. But that's what we're stuck with as far as age groups go.
No, but apparently you're supposed to modify them....amirite?
I asked KO. Said it fell right into his lap. Bottom line though, if it's important to you, cool. If it isn't, that's cool too. But the qualifiers and the work Kevin is putting in is awesome and will only make things better. |
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K Rogers
Postaholic Joined: 7/27/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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Hey-
You guys went off the rails on me. This data is worth publishing even if we never agree on anything else. The medians are a powerful tool and this matrix represents the Scottish Masters population of athlete performance over a lengthy period of time. If I were training a young athlete or an aging T&F National Champion - they'd know how their throws were stacking up to the competition and this matrix would allow that very clearly. -K
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Silverback
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At 40 I did not modify, and KO has not put in a ton of work to make that happen? I get the videos of him training and it did not fall into his lap. You have not put in the work and games? Sure now you don't practice, but you sure put in a ton and I mean ton of reps. Just the practice, games, operations, none of that fell into my lap or KO's. And your no daisy. My problem with Bill was he was putting down people driving for a championship. If that is not for you, then so be it, I am not going to run you down, striving for something at that level is not for everyone, but don't put down the dude that does. You know what Teddy would say about putting down the man in the arena.
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Mule
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K Rogers
Postaholic Joined: 7/27/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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Here's one of those mis-communications we hear so much about.
I think he just threw a awkward or clumsy phrase on the front of a comparison. Don't skip the comparison part of the sentence. It didn't come across as intended imo and hopefully you'll remember that he also said he was 100% in support. -K
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throw50
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+1 |
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Bill Boyd
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Holy crap fellas. Thats just my opinion just like a peanut butter sandwich is FAR better than a PBJ sandwich. Just my 2 penny opinion. Friendship, camamerdie, what is best for the sport > championships. I could have made prior post closer to my actual point. Sorry.
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dWood
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Billy boy-when should we stop trying to be the best(compete) and not try for a world championship. 35? 37? 39?
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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I'm not sure that trying to be the best you can be and trying for an age class championship are mutually inclusive goals.
And the answer is 39. |
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dWood
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Hmmmmmmm...39. Haha lol..guess that means you're vision quest is over...gotcha
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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