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Throwing Masters Weights in Open Class

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McSanta View Drop Down
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    Posted: 6/16/17 at 4:56pm
This topic came up in another thread; rather than adding to the hijack, I will add my thoughts here (for what it is worth)

AD 
The AD made it clear that if masters wanted to throw the Master's WOB and HWFD in the open competition they can and that it will not be counted in the overall competition.  This was done before the competition.  

As far as I am concerned, the AD did his job as the throwers knew in advance how the WOB and HWFD would be treated.  I also am sure they were happy to be able to throw the masters weight under these conditions. 

Juli, w/ all due respect, I think it is a wee bit harsh of a criticism of the AD as he let it be know in advance how it was treated.   



The Other Question:
Should the results be entered in the database?

Assume that it is okay to uploaded the results into NASGA:

The scores should not be entered in the amateur division as those scores are for a legit implement for that class - 28lb for women and 56lb for men.  Entering the scores would skew the results in the database.  Thus, they should be entered in the appropriate Master Division.  

This is often done for Lightweights and Masters when they throw in other than those divisions.  In fact a lightweight masters who threw in an open class had his scores entered in the amateur database, masters database and the LW database, perhaps even in Masters U200.    However, this is slightly different situation as they threw the open 56lb weight not their lighter heavy implement (42lb weight).

Should the results be uploading into the database ?   
The throws were made under competition conditions but were not made in competition as the scores did not count.  Thus, an argument can be made that they should not be entered despite the distances being measured.   

A counter argument can also be made that the throws were made in competition and it is a scoring issue, not an issue of whether the throws were made in competition.  

A philosophical argument that I am not sure were I land as I have never been in that position.   


"Neis" Method or handicap throwing:
I use this method to allow Master's women, LWs and other athletes from sparsely populated divisions to get marks in their divisions.    

I am not a big fan of allowing masters to throw their heavy weight against the amateurs who are throwing their heavy implements UNLESS it is in a 9 event games as it gives more events to balance out the advantage given to the masters/LWs in the heavy events.    Also, I would not let a top Masters/LW sand bag in a contest.  

As an AD, I inform those participating in events run this way in advance; I will hear good nature grumblings.  I believe it is part of the AD's job to do not surprise throwers when using somewhat non-standard rules.  


ADs Priorities
To me, the ADs first priority is to the festival, then to the sport, and then to the divisions. These priorities some times clash, especially when there is not enough throwers to fill a division's flight.   

I have not had more than 3 or 4 masters women on the field, and at times the masters men and lightweights are in the same situation.   When running a less than full flight for a divisions, the division is not covering the same expenses that a full flight does.  Thus, a clash exists between what is doing right by the festival and what is right for a division.   

I know the throwers in the smaller (by count ) divisions are very appreciative to have a competition for their division; people in the games are classy people.   Thus, the other purpose of this post is to spell out some of the issues that an AD faces when deciding to run a division: 

There is the budget issue.  Also,a man power issue -- do I have enough judges if I have to split flights? Do I have enough prizes?  The extra paperwork? Order of events on the field is a pain to avoid bottle necks? Score keeping, and on and on.   

 


Edited by McSanta - 6/19/17 at 8:43pm
Mark McVey

"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin
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Jason Cherry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jason Cherry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/18/17 at 1:39pm
Good stuff.
"Example is the best precept." ~ Aesop
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote throw50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/19/17 at 10:39am
I'm missing the problem.  Other than the few throwing rules, there is'nt much on the "how" of an event.  If an AD is willing to do the paperwork and account of different ages, body weights and implements, they are "real" throws and should "count" on NASGA.  Expecting to count in the event standings is just silly, a little "apples and oranges" problem.
  
I threw a lot of T&F hammer at collegiate meets as a masters thrower.  I was a guest and I knew I was a bit of a nuisance to the event official. My throws were measured and noted separately.  If the meet was of any consequence, i would not "make" finals, so they could score more easily.  I reported the results to the appropriate USATF page if I needed to use the distance as a qualifier or ranking, as the attempts were made within the rules, and at a sanctioned event.

If the AD doesn't have the time, resources or will to accommodate anything more than what they proposed in their games, that's just how it is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigd0g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6/23/17 at 7:49pm
At RIScot, we throw all the women together, but I still score a Women's Masters and Women's Open class (providing that there are enough athletes for the classes to count).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Juli Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7/07/17 at 9:59pm
Hey Mark! Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I didn't realize I had been called upon and just happened on this note.

Did you read my post? I did not call out the A.D. I said specifically that it's his Games to run as he pleases and since he was honest with me that he would not record scores (there seems to be a grey area there as to whether or not he meant all scores or just the 21# scores. Don't care) I chose not to attend his Games.

Again, to reiterate my O.P. again, I guess: my beef was with Dale Gehman whom-since money was being sent to him and clearly has a part in running these Games even if it were Assistant TO the A.D. could have had fellow Master's backs on this topic. I'm not rehashing my comments, go over there. 

I can keep saying I didn't call out Jason but you boys seem to want to believe something that's not there. Nothing I can do or say about that.

I own my words, but not what you've made of them. There's a difference.

Cheers to you! Hope all's well and hope our paths cross yet this season.

jp
You have to stop doing that Juli, if it worked we'd all be doing it.

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