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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Damn you Thom..... You coming down for iron thistle? I am doing that, Scarby and Warrensburg to start off my return tour. Yeah that title in 01 is still fresh on my mind. I really enjoyed that day. |
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Steve Conway
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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Is there a sport that doesn't charge an entry fee to the competitors? On a side note: dancers pay, pipers pay, clan people pay; even vendors pay a fee up front and games still lose money... The SHA pays it's judges, scorekeepers and announcers; everbody else works for free plus perhaps a ticket, lunch or a t-shirt. We buy and maintain equipment and implements, haul it to a dozen games or so on our truck, buy awards, water, design and buy t-shirts, maintain a website, train judges, send out entries and tickets, set up and take down the equipment, contact various games and write contracts, etc., etc. We do this for NO personal gain, every penny goes in to the company to keep it rolling and I'm sure that any number of other people across the country could say the same thing. As the AD for Pleasanton (one of the biggest games); I put in countless hours, pay $ out of my own pocket including part of the cost of my hotel room. The CCSF is a non-profit, all the work is done by volunteers. The entry fees collected from the athletes doesn't even cover the cost of the t-shirts and is only a very small fraction of my budget. I can only repeat: Do it if you enjoy it or don't do it...
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Steve, there are no sports worth a damn that don't charge Hell you can't even go to a martial arts tourney without dropping 25.00 minimum. then if you add on other divisions like open forms, weapons etc you can look at 50-60.00 easy. I am with you, pay and play or don't. It is that simple. |
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CLAYMORE
Senior Member Joined: 9/16/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 242 |
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BILL....+1 DAMN STRAIGHT!! |
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fidelitas super alius, decus absque.
#dave glasgow# |
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Jeff Ingram
Senior Member Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 793 |
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I wonder if part of it is perspective. I don't consider myself to be part of the entertainment, or the show, though that is certainly the case, and I do whatever I can to keep the crowd into things.
I show up to compete, not entertain. If I want to do weightlifting or powerlifting, there are fees up the yin-yang. Again, there, I'm not entertaining, I'm competing. I train hard(ish) so I can compete and throw well... the crowd may be pleased if I clear 13 feet in the WOB, but I won't be.
I'm certainly not saying one perspective is right or wrong, and for sure it is different for a Pro (I expect).
Just some rambling thoughts.
Also, I have NEVER gotten money for ADing, in 13 years. As far as the kilt goes- no kilt, no throwing. Period. Our association did take the step of buying 4 Sportkilts when we had the money, to use as lenders for new folks... cause really, it's not like they're beating the door down to get onto the field and we would like them to stick around.
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JWC III
Postaholic Joined: 8/30/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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Jeff, that's a good point. The first games I ever competed in was in Colorado and the Kilt was mandatory, but they had rentals for $5.00 (that was a few years ago....well....maybe a lot of years ago). I had not thought about getting a few to rent out to the new guys. I have also had guys that shared a kilt, they would take turns wearing it when they would throw. Claymore +1 on his +1 Brian, I am seriously thinking about the Iron Thistle. Don't worry, I'll leave my brother at home. |
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Thom Van Vleck
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Topaz
Senior Member Joined: 3/19/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 150 |
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A lot of great input from some top notch throwers and organizers! I have to agree, that if we suddenly had a rich benefactor with nothing to do with his/her money, I would LOVE to have our athletes throw for free. However, that is not reality. We usually come out a little behind because we want to take care of the athletes, but have broken even a couple of times! I don’t believe in cutting back on perks, because that is what people keep coming back for. I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. Really, outside of the all “other” stuff we pay for. For $30, where are you going to get at least two full hot meals (not leftovers from the volunteers) water and Gatorade all day with snacks, a t-shirt, an award, plus a few beers after the game for that amount of money? Again, that’s not including all of our venue and equipment charges. I have participated in games that were “free” and offered no perks. I can tell you that between my hubby & I we spent well over $60 in drinks and food to last the day. As for charging to hold spots, that depends on the needs of the games. For Shamrocks, we have to do that now. We allow about 60 athletes in, and the list has filled up in a matter of hours before. It was about a day and a half this year, and we have a waiting list. Last year, we had a waiting list of 8 athletes that could not get in. We had 7 athletes NOT show up that day. For those of you that have been to Shammies, this is an indoor venue and you know that the numbers are a severe safety issue. However, we would have been able to call up the waiting list and let them in. It was not fair to those who could not get in. Not because we wanted their money, but because this is the first chance of the year for many to throw. None of our AD’s make any money. Their travel is covered if they are attending one of our events that it is required. Our judges are volunteers, unless the festival agrees to pay them. Then it comes out of their budget, not ours. For those that have the money to allow people to throw for free, great. I hope that one day we can do that as well. Right now, we always get “I would love to help out”. However, when it comes time for them to provide something, all we get is excuses. If we had someone full time to work on this, we would be a lot better off. Until then, we will just provide the best games that we can and hope that the athletes feel it is worth it. I thank you all for your continued support despite the tough times! |
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People will not remember the things that you did, they will never remember the things that you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
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thegnome
Postaholic Joined: 9/22/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3169 |
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I didn't have time to read all the responses just hit the ones from people I know so I apologize if my question has been answered. I would gladly pay to play and realize other sports pay a lot more. When I wasn't so round I even did some 24 hour MTB races and Adventure Races those fees were in the $200 range. My question is will us paying fees really make a real dent on the finances of games? I don't know the totals etc. but it seems to me like it probably wouldn't. Still, Wayne, Hapy, Dan, Kate, I'll gladly buck up to throw. |
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Andrew G
Vada a bordo CAZZO!!!! |
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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LOL Well since we are both masters we will get to finally throw together again!
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Captain Slow
Senior Member Joined: 1/29/09 Location: Glasgow, SCO Status: Offline Points: 257 |
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Hey all first post. Nothing wrong with paying a few quid to participate in the games. Coming from a T+F background I am used to it.
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Please, please, please dont f*ck about near or in electricity substations.
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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l'm sorry! l guess that l wasn't clear. Basically, we charge an entry fee to insure that the athlete is actually intending to show up. Also because dancers, pipers, drummers, and pipe bands pay a fee too. ln the past, we invited the previous year's champions, runners-up, and caber champs to come back with no entry fee. Upwards of a third of those invitees that said that they were coming were no-shows! l changed the procedure to where the invitees had to pay to enter and then we added that fee back into the expense/travel money that we gave them. Now there are only a few no-shows among the athletes invited to return. My math doesn't add up? Maybe l slept thru that part in school. l divided the Claw's expenses for the heavy events into the income received from the entry fees and got .0548+. Tells me that the Claw is giving back to the athletes over 18 times more than it takes in from them!!!! Some might call that "a good deal!" |
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Action Figure
Groupie Joined: 11/03/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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So, I'm not an AD, but I have competed in numerous other sports.
Judo tournament ~30 bucks, plus national association fees. No T-shirt. Fencing Tournament - $25-150+Nat'l fees. No T-shirt, no gatorade. Triathlon - $75-100. Maybe a t-shirt, always gatorade. High power rifle - all over the map. No t-shirt, maybe prize money. I've only done one highland games so far, and it was really the first time i'd had spectators that weren't related to the competitors. I didn't feel like part of the entertainment, though, I felt just like I did at any other tournament. I don't mind paying, because as a competitor rather than entertainment, I expect to throw even if there aren't any spectators. To me this is the important part. I pay, I compete, I get scores. Anything else is gravy. I confess that I like t-shirts, because I have something to remember the event by even if I lose. |
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Eating like it's my job.
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Tim Barber
Newbie Joined: 10/16/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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This is only my second year throwing and the most I have had to pay here Florida is 10$ (usually to cover the t-shirts) But I would pay more if I had to.I also know that sumission grappling tournaments can cost as much as 100$ and half the feild is out in the first round. So 25-30$ to compete all day and hang out with good peaple doesn't sound to bad to me.
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Tap,snap or nap It does'nt matter to me.
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Ahhhhmmm Wally, wouldn't that be: divide the income received from the entry fees by Claw's expenses for the heavy events OR the Claw's expenses for the heavy events are divided by the income received from the entry fees
Sorry I could not help myself |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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And Santa has spoken!
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Silverback
Postaholic Plow Mule Joined: 8/29/04 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 4276 |
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The difference between our games and power meets is huge. You can't even get your mom to go to a second power meet. Nobody is going to that. So boring you about die. Same with the litany of other things mentioned. Yea rifle shooting is a big spectator sport. But our games have tons of spectators, we are the show. Not only is the training very hard, but the travel to the games and other items like your skittles is very expensive.
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Mule
Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Ok NOW we know what makes miles so damn good...Skittles!!!
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greynolds177
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/07 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1752 |
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Rather than claiming you are the show Silverback - consider using the phrase that I use over here in Inverness. "The heavies are the stars of the show". Anyone who wishes to offer a Highland Games that consists of just Heavy events has my blessing to go ahead and try it. The reason I say that is because I think that it is really important that everybody involved with throwing at Highland Games faces up to a very simple fact. A basic Highland Games consists of Highland Music, Highland Dance and Heavy Events. It is like a 3 legged stool. Remove one leg and it will fall over. Do not try to talk yourself into thinking that Highland Games are a one legged stool. It is not true and never was. I used the term "basic Highland Games" above for a reason. Ensuring that we have Highland Music, Highland Dance and Heavy Events in our programmes are only the beginning for us organisers. Now I will not list the staff or infrastructure requirements of the 2009 Inverness Highland Games because I would like everybody reading this post to focus on the most important people at our Games. The people who really pay for Highland Games all over the world. Our spectators. If we can all agree that no spectators usually equals No Highland Games then I think it is vital that we consider our spectators for a moment and ask ourselves the most important question of all. What do our customers want? With the Super Bowl almost upon us - think for a moment about the last time you went to an NFL or College game. How would you feel if all you experienced was the game? Cheated? Disappointed? Today's customers at Highland Games expect more than Heavies throwing when they go to a Highland Games. They expect multiple experiences. Experiences that have appeal to all ages groups. Experiences that appeal to men and women. We have to give them choice. You are dealing with a highly sophisticated audience with a low threshold of boredom. The younger the audience - the lower the threshold of boredom. You are dealing with the MTV generation. You are dealing with the channel hoppers. They have all been to events before. They expect certain things to be provided by you. They expect you to meet "their" expectations regarding what they will find when they join you. They expect you to attempt to exceed "their" expectations. They expect value for money. There is another reason why you need to focus on ensuring that you customers go home happy. Thanks to the internet and:- Social networking sites like Facebook and Bebo Information Sharing Websites like Trip Adviser, You Tube and of course websites like this and countless blogs Customers today have the power to communicate on a scale like never before. In the old days you might have bitched to someone in the bar that something was crap. Those days have gone. If people have a good or a bad time - they cannot wait to rush home and log on to Facebook and tell people about it. You get the idea. I guess what i am saying is that the customer is king and that everyone connected with Highland Games who does not think that is true is fooling themselves. The stars of the show may be the heavies but many a Broadway Show has closed down overnight because it did not give the audience what it wanted. And if you are wondering if I personally regard my Heavies are customers or performers - one final point. On any given weekend - every single Heavy in Scotland has somewhere else they can be and somewhere else their wives and girlfriends would prefer them to be. |
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A.D.Inverness 1999-present; MWC2006, World Championships 2007, MWC2009 and MWC2014. Organiser of Guinness World Record for Caber Tossing. Scottish Masters International Hall of Fame Inductee 2014.
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Silverback
Postaholic Plow Mule Joined: 8/29/04 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 4276 |
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Grey, I don't know about being a star, I know I am just a hack. But I work hard at it and give all I have. I would also be hip to playing that big base drum if that would help any. One game I am going to run onto the field and take one away from the band and have a go with it. And I do a game with no spectators and no bands or dancers until after we drink and it is a favorite. I am not into the castle, the heritage, the scotch, the dancing, the pipes. I just dig competing. So you could say I am a very narrow minded cat. But I like to play with the crowd, but I think that is just part of having a good time no matter what I am doing. I think it is apparent you appreciate the athlete and I am greatful for that, thank you. Hope to see you in a few months.
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Mule
Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
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scotty johnson
Groupie Joined: 11/04/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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myles if my memory serves me correct(and it does,just ask me-lol) you and band members DO NOT mix!!!...do I need to remind you of a certain team BAMA practice where you,dawayne and I were attempting some hammer throws and a marching band decided they wanted our practice field. GEEZ between the 3 of us that was 900 lbs of prime "alabama meat" hahhaa...and what did you do?...well of course winged off a monster hammer that had tuba players scattering and then the little midget conductor demanding we give way to them---again hahahahahaa...so we finish throwing,downed a couple of cool ones,scoffed in their general direction and then had some great BBQ...damn i gotta get back up there for another practice.
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dWood
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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But then again you could be a slug like Jason and jump the fence& give all highland game athletes(pro/am/women)a bad name-such a sad state of affairs when a athlete who is held in high regard flips the bird to all the athletes and the hard working Ad's! WORD
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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NOT YET To answer the question of why Athletic Registrations are necessary to many games, I need to frame the question in a much broader context. My comments mirror some of those made by Mr. Reynolds and others ... some very if not excellent posts. I will try to present a different angle and limit repetition as much as possible. However, if you want to cut to the meat of my post, look for the blue text. The Niche Market called Highland Games Athletics is only one part of an entertainment package that is bundled together and sold to the public. I have often used the (before mentioned) three-legged stool analogy to describe the games but my three legs are athletics, piping, and dance. Why these three? Without them, Highland Games Festival is nothing but a run-of-the-mill beer drinking street festivals or county fair. It is what makes the Games different from every other festival and a NICHE we should jealously protect and exploit. Thus, I feel that dancing, piping, and athletics need to be present in some form (ranging from demos to full competition) to enhance the games chances of success as they are the NICHIE and are the goose of the meal. Despite being a niche event, Highland Games Festivals needs to provide sauce for the goose to get families to layout $10 a head or $XX for a family pass. The sauce would be musical entertainment (some believe this is a fourth leg of the mythical three-legged stool) along with vending, ethnic food, family activities, beer tent, .... (Side Note: I believe one of the reasons why the games are stronger than our our struggling county and state fairs is that the Games are different and novel ) The Nature of Competition when putting on Highland Games The games competes on many different levels. Local Competition: There is extreme competition for the family entertainment dollar. Movies, car and bike shows and races, local sporting events, casinos, other festivals, church picnics, … To increase the games chances to be successful in the local market, the games should provide a complete entertainment package. Complete as in something for every member of the family and I think the games is tailor made to do this. (well okay maybe not teenagers but some of them get into the Nerf knight thing) The other area of local competition is competition for volunteers. What does the games have to give up to get people to show up to volunteer??? Regional Competition: The games competes for Celtic vendors and musical acts, clan representatives, sheep herding, dog agility, falconry, animals, ...., on a regional basis. These are essential in providing the complete package that allows the games to compete in the local market for the family entertainment dollar. Thus, regional competition does impact the games bottom line. {PS - this is why I consistently and obnoxiously bitch about festivals that compete w/ Highland Games such as renaissance fairs and now that new combination Strongmen/Heavy Athletics events (despite what that new organization has stated, I have already noticed a conflict between two relatively close events .... ohhh never mind, that is a different bitch ..... )} Contestant Competition: Each competition or leg of the stool competes for contestants on a regional basis – they all have to balance registration fee versus rewards, bling, facilities provided, and crowd appreciation of their art form to draw in top competitors who will put on a kick ass show. WHY REGISTRATION FEEs ARE NEEDED The reason why is that for every dollar of revenue the Athletic Area can generate to offset its costs allows the games to put a dollar to use in other areas. Bringing in sheep herding, falconry, agility trials, ...., in other words the SAUCE for the goose that completes the entertainment package. Thus, athletic registration indirectly supports the efforts of providing a full and complete FAMILY entertainment package to the public, which is so essential in the local family entertainment market and so essential to the games success. DEATH SPIRALS: If the games starts cutting back because money is tight, less people will show the next year (as they feel cheated or a disappointed with the value bought) which will make money event tighter, which means the games has to pull back even more, and less people will show the following year, ...... Death spirals are hard to pull out
As an AD, I find that I am a slave to two conflicting but complementary causes
Brain is this the long winded bloated, preaching post you were looking for! The good thing is most people won't read it because it is too damn long and too damn preachy! |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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greynolds177
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/07 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1752 |
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+1 McSanta You tell it how it is and sometimes it is good being preachy. In the past decade at Inverness we have thrown a lot into the mix including:- A 2nd Day of Competition Clan Gathering Fun Fair Traditional Music Tent Youth Music Tent Proclaimers Concert (2007) Armed Forces Area American Football Aerobatics March of the Highlanders Charity March Children's Shinty Final Inter Clan Gathering Antiques Fair Model Car Exhibition Military Fly Past Archery Exhibition Chain Saw Carving Exhibition Dog Obedience Show Mass Highland Fling Oh and the Masters and World Championships
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A.D.Inverness 1999-present; MWC2006, World Championships 2007, MWC2009 and MWC2014. Organiser of Guinness World Record for Caber Tossing. Scottish Masters International Hall of Fame Inductee 2014.
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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Oops! l made a boo-boo! Not bad for guy that is legally blind and flunked recess in grade school! l did the math right and wrote it down backwards. My bad!! Bottom line, entry fees at the Claw pay for a very, very small portion of the cost to put on the event! |
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Again Santa has spoken!
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Wally, I had to make this post because your registration income to athletic cost ratio of 5.48% is FRICKING AMAZING! In the Midwest, many games have 50 to 60 throwers. Using a registration fee of $25 and 56 throwers (same # of throwers at claw last year), the registration income would be $1,400. If a games could run things as cheaply as Wally, the budget would be 1400/.0548 = $25,547 .... I can dream.... Or another way of looking at it ... assume a budget of $5,000 (yields a nice round number), the registration revenue to cost ratio would be 28% Finally, if the games with a $5000 budget and 56 throwers had Wally's ratio, the registration fee per thrower would be $4.90 Amazing ... just unbelievably amazing
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Me thinks wally is getting close to getting a lump of coal in his stocking from santa this year...
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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Yes, l probably will get that and that alone, but not because l make sure that the athletes get far more than their monies worth when they compete at the Claw! There are other reasons for the coal that we won't go into here. |
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16lb-hammer(at)sshga.org
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no 'try!'" Yoda |
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FrankH
Senior Member Joined: 5/22/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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I thought it might be fun to go to the Masters Indoor Track and Field Championships and toss the shot, since they are in my back yard this year. Entry fee: $45. T-shirt (optional): $15. Friend of the National Masters Championships Contribution (optional): $10. Total: $70 to go throw the shot and hang out. Plus, you have to be a registered USATF member which costs $30-$100 depending on whether you join for 1, 2, 3 or 4 years. When I throw at local track meets, (once or twice a year) it costs about $8 (extra per additional event) and you have to be a member of the track club. (I forget how much that is, maybe $20-30). For that you get no water, no lunch, no spectators to speak of, a cranky judge, (OK, that's the same ) no t-shirt, no pipes, no shade, no comaraderie (unless you bring your own) and you're done in a couple hours. (Mercifully.) I do it because I like to see how my stone throwing translates into shot throwing, and to see how my discus has come along since high school graduation 38 years ago. (A 1.5k disc goes about as far as a 1.6k used to.) It gives me a huge appreciation for how great our sport is. Paying a $10-$25 entry fee a few times a year (most MASA games I throw at are free to the athletes) is a deal. |
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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lf anyone is interested, my '09 budget for the Claw was just approved and if we get a full contingent of throwers, that ratio will be 4.8% this year! l totally recommend that ADs help their event to grow by just asking for a few more bucks each year. All that your Games can do to you is to say "no!" |
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