Olympic Lifts Question
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Printed Date: 3/27/26 at 12:26am
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Topic: Olympic Lifts Question
Posted By: Lance Creed
Subject: Olympic Lifts Question
Date Posted: 3/05/12 at 3:54pm
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I'm committing to the olympic lifts this year and have a question: what's better, hangs or from the floor? Personally I am more comfortable doing hangs, but that is probably because I'm inexperienced with these lifts. ------------- http://creedbrewing.com" rel="nofollow - Creed Brewing http://kiltedlance.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow - Kilted Lance |
Replies:
Posted By: JSiau10
Date Posted: 3/05/12 at 4:05pm
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I do hangs, but I am trying to do from the floor. I feel it is a more effective form of the lift. ------------- I'm just an idiot, pretending to be smart. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/05/12 at 10:42pm
Why? ------------- |
JSiau10 wrote:Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 3/05/12 at 11:16pm
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In college I learned to do them from the floor with minimal hanging. However now I almost always do hanging because (as it has been stated numerous times by numerous people) they translate better to throwing than from the floor. That being said you can still generate loads of power from the floor and I like to do them from the floor every once and a while to switch it up. Also saves my hands from holding the weight the whole time as I do not have bumper plates and cause I feel like I am going to break my wrists if I use straps while cleaning ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 1:07am
| I just started doing them from the flooor. I don't have a specific reason, other than it lets me deadlift more often since I can't go heavy (with deads) but once every 2-3 weeks. |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 1:09am
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I am POSITIVE I will get a ton of "No, you're wrong" responses to this, but as someone who did the whole "committing to the o-lifts" bit some years ago, I will tell you all the pros/cons and my opinions on them.
1) You don't NEED o-lifts to be a good thrower. You need to move things explosively.
2) You don't NEED to do them from the floor. From the hang is a much more relevant position to throwing.
3) You don't NEED to catch a single lift. High pulls will get you what you need and spare your knees a ton of wear and tear.
4) I would do snatches over cleans because they're faster and honestly feel better. But that's me.
Now, all that being said, the o-lifts are fun. Like super fun. Just like with throwing, there is an extremely high technical component and chasing that perfection is really what brings the fascination. That one time in 100 where you hit the lift "right" keeps you going through the other 99.
But it's not IF your knees will hurt. It's WHEN.
YMMV, but think about what your overall goals are. Picking up the actual lifts is serving another master. Do the things that make you a better thrower. Not a better lifter.
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Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 1:18am
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First of all, can you do either properly? If not, don't go heavy until you can do them reasonably well, botyh because they are not going to provide any benefit unless they are done reasonably well and because they can be hard on one's back, shoulders, or wrists if done improperly. Hang Cleans are generally easier to do properly, particularly so for people who have a difficult time getting into or holding the proper position off the floor. They are also just a simpler movement and therefore easier to learn (although I also learned to do them from the floor first and in fact never did them from the hang until a few years ago). However, they also seem to be more likely to be "abused". I do think Hang Cleans probably translate better to throwing, although ideally you should do both, at least in the off-season. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 1:26am
I would actually agree with almost 100% of this, except for the reference to knee pain (assuming you are doing Power Cleans, preferably with a high catch - Squat Cleans are a whole different issue and a thrower really does not need to go there at all). Also, the easiest and possibly best/safest lift is the Clean-Grip Hang Snatch to a high catch. Super fast, very transferable power, easy on the wrists and shoulders. And while you don't NEED to catch a single clean, if you can do so without pain I really think you are better off. This is just my experience and I am certainly not adamant about this. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 2:26am
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Agreed Sean. And you do snatch pulls for that same reason I do clean pulls...they feel righter. Catching the lifts will make the knees hurt. For sure. Can't get around thermodynamics. The clean grip snatch can be just as hard on the knees as anything. Watched a thrower gradually muck his knees up doing them. Even at moderate weight, any leg splay is problematic because the weight is overhead. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 3:04am
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Lance Creed
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 3:12am
I have been doing cleans for years and, although I'm sure the Russian judge would knock down my score, I'm pretty comfortable with them. Snatch is another deal altogether and the plan is to keep them light until I start feeling good about my form. I will probably stick with hangs per the advice given here. Thanks! ------------- http://creedbrewing.com" rel="nofollow - Creed Brewing http://kiltedlance.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow - Kilted Lance |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 3:18am
Well, yeah, something'll give. Also acceptable would be ankles, wrists, and shoulders.
Or just do pulls. Or banded deadlifts/box squats.(sup Sroka). Moving heavy weight is what we're after. If I'm picking throwers based on strength, I'll take the tall guys with a big deadlift, followed by the medium guys with a big clean. Then send everyone else home (me included). ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Andy Vincent
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:12am
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Why are hang cleans and hang snatches good, but high squats bad for throwing? Something I see a lot on here, and have always wondered about. ------------- |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:28am
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Actually, a lot of very high level throws coaches (Bonderchuk included) use a ton of high squats. When the IAAF championships were here in 2001, I was still training around the university and a lot of the throwers trained in there as the facility they were supposed to have wasn't done on time.
I saw a LOT of VERY high, VERY explosive box squat triples. One little hammer throw girl was using 130kg (286) and making the bar all but warp at the top of each rep from the drive. Must have been to a 24" box and she was a LOT shorter than me.
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Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:29am
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High squats are necessarily bad for throwing, they are really just bad in general. Plus when people call slight knee bends "squats", it makes me want to stab them with a rusty fork. 
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Posted By: Lance Creed
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:38am
There is an older body builder guy in my gym who brings his teenage son with him that does about a 1/10th squat. One day they were in the squat rack next to me and I heard him tell his kid "you only go that deep if you are competing, otherwise there is no reason to go that deep". I can only assume by "competing" he meant powerlifting comps. Also, he kept saying "that deep" as though it was somehow dirty... Maybe I should throw a rusty fork in my gym bag. ------------- http://creedbrewing.com" rel="nofollow - Creed Brewing http://kiltedlance.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow - Kilted Lance |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:39am
Actually, when it comes specifically to throwing, as opposed to things like overall strength building, complete muscle development, and injury prevention, it seems that half-squats and "three-quarter" squats (to an inch or two above parallel) are superior in terms of specificity and transfer. Certainly this is how most Eastern European and German throwers squat, at least for much of the year. I doubt Dylan Armstrong has gone to parallel since he began training under Bondarchuk a few years ago. I personally prefer deep squats, especially in front, but I certainly think half-squats should ideally be included in ones reportoire as well (along with Split Squats, etc, etc). Just so long as they are referred to as half- squats! ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 4:55am
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What Sean said. My post took a long time to go through for some reason. The "Bench Squats are often done to a bench/box of anywhere from 18" to 24" in height. Again, I generally prefer my squats deep and my catches high, but (just from a very quick look): http://youtu.be/shBLZw0Wczk" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/shBLZw0Wczk http://youtu.be/1Xy-zlZf6Tg" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/1Xy-zlZf6Tg http://youtu.be/_msVEhDko5U" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/_msVEhDko5U ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 5:01am
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Also check out the Half-Squats at 7:16 (and the Hip Snatches a bit earlier). Just FYI. http://youtu.be/SJ9wyreDRTQ" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/SJ9wyreDRTQ ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 5:11am
Why are half-squats necessarily so bad as long as they are not done all the time and are consciously done and referred to as Half-Squats? They have their limitations, but they do allow one to work a given range of motion harder than full squats. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: JSiau10
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 5:36am
I feel like it works my legs more than the hangs do, and if I can get more bang for my buck then I will. ------------- I'm just an idiot, pretending to be smart. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 5:52am
Taken from an old post I found from 2007 on this subject (I cannot believe I have been contributing to this board since at least 2007!):
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 7:09am
Again, I wasn't specifically saying that they are bad for throwing or some other athletic purpose. They are bad in the same way that Vibram shoes are bad. You just end up looking like a douche. I'm not convinced that they are necessarily that great either. And I'm certainly not convinced that they are a worthy addition to anyone who isn't a full time thrower with unlimited training and recovery time, but that's neither here nor there. Those links you posted I wouldn't even consider a 'half squat'. Half implies that it's midway between the standing up and ATG. Which for some people works out to be right near parallel. That's a half squat. ------------- |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 7:10am
So it's more 'effective' because you feel it works your legs more? Do you....eh, never mind. ------------- |
Posted By: Jeff Ingram
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 7:33am
I'm waiting to see if Sean comes in with a rebuttal.
Also, Olympic lifting makes you fat.
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Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 8:22am
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 9:15am
He's busy squatting high. And shut up. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/06/12 at 11:35am
Yeah, Josh is just big boned. I'm going to take my earliest opportunity to rest my Vibram-covered feet on Craig's lap in a beer tent.
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Posted By: Sean Betz
Date Posted: 3/07/12 at 3:33am
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My take on this subject. 1. Both olympic lifts from the floor and from the hang have value. From the floor builds more starting strength and accelerating strength. Basically the ability to produce force from nothing and build power throughout the movement. Hang lifts are better at working the stretch reflex(depending on how you do them). The ability to go from eccentric to concentric quicker and more explosively. 2. I haven't seen a power clean on youtube above 400 that the lifter isn't spreading the feet on the catch or dropping under. Andy's may be the best example of no spread catch with good weight. I posted a video last year of Rezazedeh catching a power clean with a wide catch. I would think that this would put more strain on your hips and not your knees. To me it's not the safest thing but for me it is safer than catching in a split or a deep squat, for me . I can clean more weight without moving the feet after pushing my cleans up with a wide catch, so that is why I do it. Plus I think it looks worst than it is when your 6'5" and catching wide with long legs. Trying to get better at this. 3. Doing pulls without catches during the season is probably a smart thing. Our bodies do need to be able to absorb force while throwing, so catching stuff isn't necessarily a bad thing at times. Josh, Sean, and Peter bring up some good points that are good to look at.
4. I dislike vibrams. People are wearing shoes and living longer. Some people need arch supports. We are not as tough as Kenyan marathoners.
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Posted By: Tim Pinkerton
Date Posted: 3/07/12 at 2:08pm
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Complaining that the Olympic lifts are to hard on your joints while also competing in the highland games seems a bit like the pot calling the kettle rusty... The shear and rotational forces we put on our spines doing this sport would make most chiropractors cringe. Or smile with greed. Its not all the friendly to our other joints either. Nobody comes out on the other side of any athletic endevour with out some kind of injuries a.k.a. Battle scars. (If they do then they probably sucked) You just have to choose if it's worth it to you. Your born weak and your die weak. You really only get a short time to be strong/great. I say lay it on the line and go for it. Just don't do it wearing gardening gloves for shoes... ------------- "Big ain't Strong...Strong is Strong." Visit our training page at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/119414814828174 - http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/ 119414814828174 |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/07/12 at 2:47pm
Quick, name 3 elite weightlifters over 40. It's just plain harder on the body. There''s plenty of thrower's who have success in their 40's and 50's. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/07/12 at 2:49pm
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Posted By: Tim Pinkerton
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 12:34am
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My damage is already pilling up. That's why I wrote what I wrote. There is already stuff I can't do that I used to do. I train around it. My 20% disability in my right ankle had the doc telling me to stop heavy lifting and throwing. I know I'm not the only one to have been told that. You asked for ELITE lifters and not masters lifters. Are you also speaking of ELITE throwers at 40-50? I will admit, I did know there were any. ------------- "Big ain't Strong...Strong is Strong." Visit our training page at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/119414814828174 - http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/ 119414814828174 |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 12:50am
| Ask Kerry Overfelt :) |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 12:50am
| I hear that Vierra guy is ok too. |
Posted By: Tim Pinkerton
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 1:31am
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These guys have no injuries from throwing? Throwing is easier on your body but it's still not nice to it. What I'm saying is it all has its costs. You have to decide if it's worth it. ------------- "Big ain't Strong...Strong is Strong." Visit our training page at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/119414814828174 - http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/ 119414814828174 |
Posted By: Lance Creed
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 1:49am
I think I found my new sig... ------------- http://creedbrewing.com" rel="nofollow - Creed Brewing http://kiltedlance.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow - Kilted Lance |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 1:53am
Not really fair, especially when you use the tag "elite". There aren't near as many venues for older weightlifters to lift, esp when things start to decline. As a older Highland Games thrower you can just flat out suck, and still compete all the time and even in "championship" games. ------------- |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 1:57am
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Sure, sure, but the point is that at 35 you're usually done. There HG pros over 40. I can think of no one that age that lifts in big meets.
------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:05am
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That's definitely true, but I think it's more of a competing age/training age thing than a chronological age thing. Good oly lifters, for the most part, have been training and competing a hell of a lot longer than the HG guys in their 40's who are "good"...all 3 or 5 of them. ------------- |
Posted By: Jeff Ingram
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:08am
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That's sort of the point Tim. If the sport is going to take a toll on you, your training needs to take that into account and be measured accordingly. If both training and competing are destroying you, your career is going to be that much shorter. If one's goal is to shine on the field, then shining in the weight room is probably a mistake to some degree. one has to find their own balance where training pushes your progress as far as possible without impacting negatively on the throws that actually matter.
None of that is news of course; neither is the fact that I never did find that balance for myself and always pushed the training (lifting especially) far too hard. Diminishing returns and all that.
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Posted By: Jeff Ingram
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:10am
| You guys type much faster than I do. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:12am
Not like this, in the Games, as far as I know. But please, just give me ONE guy in the top 15-20 in the world in OWL that is 40+.. Not all strength sports built the same. For instance, I think strongman is even HARDER on the body than OWL. And even in track and field, the javelin is crazy hard on the body, but hammer throwers seem to hang on a long time. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:19am
 I'm still waiting for my Shakespeare. The man does an excellent dirty limerick, though. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Tim Pinkerton
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 2:45am
I agree with this completely. I was just saying we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. The Olympic lifts and their derivatives are not all bad for everyone. Neither are they all good. Same for the throws. ------------- "Big ain't Strong...Strong is Strong." Visit our training page at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/119414814828174 - http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Get-U-Fit-Training-Systems/ 119414814828174 |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 3:17am
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Hey, I'm a firm believer in the olifts. But I don't think they're as NECESSARY as many point them out to be.
My Exhibit A is Craig Smith. I am certain there are many, many more.
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Posted By: Sammy68123
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 5:14pm
If you're talking Oly meets, I confess that I don't know how much chance the over-40 lifters get to compete. However, powerlifting is different story. National (USAPL) and international (IPF) Master's competitions. I can't quibble about how well Master's lifters do now compared to how they did or would have done earlier in their lives (I don't have the time to compare). But many people have set their own PRs after age 40 in powerlifting: I know I have. Also, no need to muddy the thread by bashing Vibram shoes. ------------- Teresa Merrick Bellevue, NE |
Posted By: Sammy68123
Date Posted: 3/08/12 at 5:15pm
That is for the other posters, not Chad. ------------- Teresa Merrick Bellevue, NE |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 12:39am
This is SO true, and while it is not "news", in my experience it is something that many people don't really buy into and relatively few people actually put into practice on a consistant basis. However, the evidence is pretty clear - you simply cannot train to be as strong as possible while simultaneously throwing a lot. Jud Logan is a great example (best Back Squat of 770, but never squatted with more than 500 during his best throwing years), but there are MANY others who found that the training required to lift the heaviest weights possible was not compatible in one way or another with the training required to throw as far as possible. Many HG Pros recognize this in their way too, backing WAY off lifting during the competitive season. Fire away, but that is the truth. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Sean Betz
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 1:30am
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I think there is a difference between full olympic movements and power and hang variations, as far as how hard they are on your body. I personally have never hurt myself doing a snatch or a clean. I don't know the cumulative effect of everything. Who really does. I have hurt myself squatting 3 or 4 times and bench pressing at least 5 times. If you watch someone doing a pull, clean or snatch you have to be fairly balanced to achieve the lift. I think it definitely builds balanced development in and throughout the back, hips, and hamstrings. Watch people squat and bench press and you see all kinds of imbalances. Take 80-90% of your max, the weights that start to make you strong, and tell me what is more dangerous to perform an olympic type pull or a squat or press. Both will definitely make you strong, but I think you can get away with the pulls more often. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 3:21am
You're right. Powerlifting IS a different story. All strength sports aren't the same. I watched a 40+ dude bench 600 last night. And I don't want to bash Vibrams, but really the do most of the work themselves. I mean they make a person look like a leprechaun, and elf, or any kind of adorable, mythical creature. And not in that good, sexy way, either. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 4:42am
| Sounds like someone's getting his back walked on in my sexy shoes this summer. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 4:45am
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Well, at least that's better than the heals, anyway. Wait. You said "back." Disregard. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Big Ed
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 8:41am
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You know I keep seeing and hearing this same old tired line about the Olympic lifts in regards to catching the lifts....all you need is the pull that's the only part that matters. So my question is that at no point in the spin for weights and open stone do you ever re-bend your knees?? At no point during the caber do you bend your knees before you try and produce enough power against the ground to turn the caber or release the weights and stones?? The catch in regards to the lifts is important in preparing the body to absorb force and stabilize that force and then produce force again. If you look at the spin you can clearly see the body produce force then reduce force/stabilize only to do it again getting to the trig and exploding into the implement you are throwing....that is unless you are throwing off straight legs!!! There are plenty of videos from sports showing injuries.....How many injuries from the highland games? just my 3 cents and thoughts.
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Posted By: Sean Betz
Date Posted: 3/09/12 at 9:42am
Thank you Mr. Cosner. I agree completely. I consider you the most qualified athlete on the board to talk about the olympic lifts.
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