Okay , so I got the importance of front squats ,,, now - how about the deadlift , I haven't done much deadlifting since powerlifting days . How do they fit in with throwing ?? Or is it just core work ?

Thanks again for all the help .

Bret

Bret,

You will find people have very different views about the usefulness of deadlifts in a HG thraining program.  I come from a throwing background, where nobody (except Kevin Akins, a beast who trained with Louie Simmons back in the early 1980s) ever did any deadlifts, except maybe for a few weeks in the fall for some guys.  Then you have guys like Myles (Silverback) and several others on this board for whom deads are a key lift and who apparently thrive on them. 

You also have to distinguish between full, heavy deadlifts, full ROM stiff-legged deads, and Romanian deadlifts.  The latter two can be very useful assistance exercises, resulting in excellent hamstring and lower back development.  These would definitely be very important if you cannot or (for whatever reason) do not squat at least below parallel on a regular basis and/or if you don't include some power cleans or pulls from the floor.

My personal opinion, which I know others who have been very successful in this sport disagree with, is that while heavy, full deadlifts are good for building limit strength in the legs and especially the back, they just aren't that specific to throwing.  I, and virtually all T&F throwers, would rather use squats to build basic limit strength, and use some combination of power cleans, high (and possibly low) pulls, and/or power snatches to build pulling POWER.  Heavy deadlifts just don't feel like throwing to me at all, if you know what I mean.

One thing even the advocates for deadlifts will likely agree on is that heavy deadlifts are definitely not to be used within 2-3 weeks of a competition and possibly even within a few days of a hard throwing practice, as they can really cook your low back.

I'm sure Myles, Craig, Don, and Baab and others will be anxious to add their perspective.

I will have to agree with Peter on this one. Although I feel like variations of the deadlift or "pulls" are pretty throws specific, I have probably done 10-20 actual deadlifts in the last 10 years (Powerlifting meet attempts included). Would a higher maximum DL help my throws? well maybe, but the DL just does not "feel" like throwing to me.

I do feel, however, that a significant amount of pulling movements need to be done (cleans, snatches, hi pulls) in order to develop rate of force, especially of the posterior chain. Typical heavy deadlifts are good for tendon strength, but are not really applicable for throws IMHO. One case however, when heavy DL would seem to be needed for throws is if the thrower was relatively week to start with, and nneded just more raw strength to handle the impliments. That does not seem like it would be an issue for most of the big dogs on this forum. I think you have to have a decent DL (mid 300's) to be pretty effective at the throws. If not the 56 will just be too brutal on the body. I, myslef, pulled 555 at 216bw with little or no deadlifting in training. True, we were doing snatch pulls from a 2 second pause below the knee with 352lb., so the back was strong, but I NEVER went over 440 in any kind of pull in the gym in 10 years. This is just my finding, I am sure there are folks that heavy deads work well for.

(Disclaimer- Jason Lawson dealifted 810lb. and threw 17' in the WOB the first day he tried it. He also cleaned 400+, so you CAN over power it if you are THAT strong!)

 Maybe I will start doing them and get my standing wob over 16'. If one was do do many deads, and did not have the proper coaching or inclination to do explosive olympic type pulls, I would suggest speed deads with bands, optimally using the Tendo Unit (or some other similar device) to measure speed, in order to keep POWER as the main objective.

Just my 2 cents,

Bert

If you are going to take one movement to see who is the strongest, what would it be?  I say it is deadlift.  I did not say who could lift the most?  As then speed and technique come into play.  But one measurement, one movement.  It is the dead.  And if I am stronger than you, you have to have technique way over me to beat me.  And You might not have any technique over me.  So I am going to be very strong and just overpower you. 

I don't like Romanian, reps, partials, on blocks, in a rack, with dumbells or any of that other stuff.  I like to go pull heavy.  You take some guy doing the Romanian on blocks and doing his reps and concentrating on his hamstrings and lower back with his sweat band, gloves, water bottle and chick training partner.  I will take Mr. Nasty who comes in and pulls 700 takes the Romanians girlfriend and punches him in the mouth.  Quit thinking so much, quit charting, quit note taking, quit talking and go do something heavy.  Listen to some nasty music, get a nasty thought in your head and go get nasty on the bar.  Then when you go to the game you can let the nasty loose. 

Regardless of the effectiveness of specific lifts, I think we should take a page from Myles' book and do the lifts you like to do. Myles likes to pull heavy...great, if that makes him feel good and enjoy himself..by all means, knock it out. There is a certian amount of animal you have to have to make heavy object raise, impliments go far etc. Deadlifts are great for finding and honing "the animal" inside you.

As a side note, although they have not been a staple of my training for the last 10 years or so, being the son of Richard Sorin (who loved heavy deadlifts and was USPF National Champ), I have been required be able to deadlift double body weight in order to carry the family name as man instead of a boy. A feat I am proud to say I have completed since 8 years old with my 112lb. DL at 56lb. BW.

Bar loaded,

Bert

Bert Sorin wrote: - Jason Lawson deadlifted 810lb. and threw 17' in the WOB the first day he tried it. He also cleaned 400+, so you CAN over power it if you are THAT strong!)

Two points - (1) As Bert suggests, if you are strong enough, anything is possible, and (2) anyone who can (power) clean 400+ is POWERFUL in the true sense of the word, regardless of what they did to get that way, as is anyone who can achieve 17' in the standing WOB.  In my original post, I referred to Kevin Akins, who was ranked 4th or 5th in the world in the shot in 1983 with a PR of about 70'10".  Although he generally followed a powerlifting program (early Westside), he also had a PR of 420 in the power clean.

Also, I would expect anyone who can deadlift 810 can probably squat 700+ without a suit, which is certainly relevant too (not that deadlifting 810 is irrelevant).  I guess the question for me is what's the best/most efficient way to build or obtain that type of power, and from what I have seen and read over the years that is through a combination of squats, various explosive pulls, and various types of plyometrics.  

However, if you can get strong on heavy deads and still manage to be very fast and explosive, the result will be power (a la Myles & Co.).  And if you don't know how to do power cleans etc. properly, you may be better off not doing them until you learn how.

Cheers!

Silverback wrote:   Quit thinking so much, quit charting, quit note taking, quit talking and go do something heavy.

Werd.

So, what you're saying is all the pulling movements work.  That's why this routine is always my favorite when I don't want to think.  Kinda like the triplex stuff Bert posted, but started mainly because I train at home with just a bar and some bumpers.  Just keep adding more weight until you graduate to the next exercise.

CG Snatch

95*3, 115*3, 135*3, 155*3

Clean

185*3, 225*3, 255*3, 275*3

High Pull

295*3, 315*3, 335*3, 365*3, 385*3

Deadlift

405*3, 455*3, 495*3, 515*3, 545*3

Bent Row

225*10, 275*8, 315*6

Add some pullthrus to finish and stretch out too. 

I am going to the gym to squat and pay homage to the Sorinex racks at the YMCA tonight.  I hope in some of that power red paint is something to hurt my legs and lower back and make them swell up.  Now to find that Romanian cat and get fired up. 

The Cookster is proof that pullin makes you pretty. 

Cook,

Great pulling workout. My coach saw Libor Charfretag (hammer thrower) doing something similar in training. Just pull with one exercise until it gets too heavy, them move to the less complicated movement etc. We started calling it Hungarian Triplex. Super simple and idiot proof. By the way Chris, you are strong as crap.

Myles, good to hear you are training in the "Power Tower". Will make you strong like bull, Or should I say, will make bull strong like Myles.

Gotta go lift,

Bert

Okay, I have to get in on this one.  I know I throw better when I am stronger and deadlifts are my way of getting there along with heavy squats.  If I had the joint flexibility to catch a heavy clean again, that would be another way to go, as a I was an Olympic lifter and had a 400+ C&J. But that was 20 years ago. Power snatches are a great way to augment the strength/speed for me without the bar crashing onto me.  But, for guys with mileage on their joints or who have not had the time to become proficient at the cleans/snathces (which takes thousands of reps to achieve) deadlifts are a quick way to get stronger.  It is amusing too, that no one talks about doing the deadlifts dynamically with a straight bar, ie, fast deadlifts.  I do know that our current World Champion touts the trap bar jump shrug, a varient of a deadlift, for throwing.  Why not do deadlifts with dynamic variations during different times of the year, heavier in the off-season and faster/lighter during the season.  For most of the guys reading this board, that is probably a good way to look at this.

Now for the other perenial favorite topics, spin vs. stand and hook grip.

Skullsplitter wrote: I do know that our current World Champion touts the trap bar jump shrug, a varient of a deadlift, for throwing.

Wouldn't jump shrugs, whether with a trap bar or a straight bar, be closer to a straight-armed low pull than a deadlift?  This may depend on how dynamically you do these, or may simply be a matter of terminology.  But I would say jump shrugs fall into the heavy dynamic pull category.  They certainly feel a lot different than a heavy deadlift.  Any advice with respect to this point would be appreciated.

Bert Sorin wrote: By the way Chris, you are strong as crap.

Not really and to make matters worse, I think I came out of high school with the same numbers and never made too much improvement. At 20, I went 445x3 Squat, 315*3 bench and 540*1...at 22 I was 550, 350, 605 in AAU drug tested raw meet (Show Low, AZ) and at 24 I had a 655 dead in a meet. I quit going heavy after that and it has all been slowly going down since.

Sorry about being a little terse yesterday.  It has been a long tough winter, I appoligize if I offended anyone. 

Used the Sorinex Hydraulic Jack Racks at the gym last night.  I feel so much better. 

Silverback wrote: go get nasty on the bar.  Then when you go to the game you can let the nasty loose.

Myles - What do you use to get your NASTY off of the bar when you are done? 

Ok, not to beat the deadlift horse to death or anything, but hears another d-lift question. I like to do my deads about once a week (just to feel heavy every now and then) but I'm questioning my form.

  I usually get a wider than shoulder-widthstance with my grip a little narrower (arms coming down inside my knees). I feel like I can move more weight this way.  

  Here's my question: I'm thinking if I move my stance in to shoulder width, with my grip a little wider (arms coming down outside of my knees) I think it might work my back a bit more, but i I'd have to cut back the weight considerably. I'm wondering which would be more benificial to my "I'm going to kill the WOB this year" workout.

 Anyone have any prefrences on stances?

I thought I would insert this message from Coach Mac, as it is very relevant to this particular thread.

Posted: 15/2/07 at 11:42am | IP Logged	http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=41263&TPN=1">

J Payne wrote: Ok, not to beat the deadlift horse to death or anything, but hears another d-lift question. I like to do my deads about once a week (just to feel heavy every now and then) but I'm questioning my form.   I usually get a wider than shoulder-widthstance with my grip a little narrower (arms coming down inside my knees). I feel like I can move more weight this way.     Here's my question: I'm thinking if I move my stance in to shoulder width, with my grip a little wider (arms coming down outside of my knees) I think it might work my back a bit more, but i I'd have to cut back the weight considerably. I'm wondering which would be more benificial to my "I'm going to kill the WOB this year" workout.  Anyone have any prefrences on stances?

I prefer conventional (narrow stance, hands outside legs) vs. sumo (wide stance, hands inside legs).  With sumo you should start low and keep your back straight and squeeze the bar off the floor with your legs.  With conventional it is more lower back.  You should start by trying to drive your feet thru the floor and then once the bar clears your knees, shoot your hips forward and your shoulders back.  The Conv. style will have more carry over for WOB.  I also like hang cleans for WOB (but I am pretty new to throwing so take with a grain of salt)

UpChucker wrote:   The Conv. style will have more carry over for WOB.

I disagree. 

then you feel sumo pulls carry over more for WOB?  Please explain...

I was not saying conv. dl is the single best exercise for WOB, but in my limited experience, my conv. dl pull is a lot closer to my WOB movement than my sumo dl

Muscle recruitment in a sumo deadlift has more carryover in the WOB, in my limited experience.   YMMV.

-C

in your limited experience...LOL  You throw the 56 as far as I throw the 28!

YMMV?  What does that stand for?

Checked out your website and it is now in the favorites file, will take more time to dig thru it after Church.  After watching your sumo dl I can see what you are saying. 

Your Mileage May Vary. 

Thanks on the website!

-C

17/20 wrote:  Traditional style requires and will result in a much stronger back,

I don't disagree one bit here.  I pull sumo because i want the hip, hamstring, etc... 

17/20 wrote: with similar mech's to the standing wt.

I do disagree here.  It's just not that similar.

17/20 wrote:  The DEAD LIFT is always performed fast-Dynamic Westside Method w/Bands. I/m looking for mechanics and pace on the bar that's all.

I'm not.

On 12/21 I did 3x3 of 500 with belt just so I'd feel a little less sorry for myself after the shoulder surgery on 12/22.

I bought a Krepinsek safety squat bar last summer, didn't use it much because it rode high. Everything is done for a reason though, and I had to get accustomed to the bar because I couldn't reach back for a regular bar after the shoulder surgery. For  7 weeks I did squats and good mornings with this bar. I've gotten fairly used to the bar, and just for a change I decided that after all these years of using a power belt and wraps in the off-season, I'd go au fresco this off-season.

Last night, 8 weeks and a few days out, I did 3x3 of 500 again, but this time the belt stayed hanging on the wall and the toolshed swung free in the wind - a liberating experience. The last time I had pulled on anything was 12/21. I think the relatively heavy good mornings (315) with no belt (or maybe just the spice of variety) kept my dl up and even increased it.

Right now, my body is telling me that the good mornings oly style make me even more explosive than dl's. Part of it is that cherry safety squat bar that really lets you focus on explosion with no distraction.

SteveP posted a really good video example of oly style good mornings a while back. Krepinsek: http://www.1500lb.com - www.1500lb.com

Sound very spicy K Monster, we are going to have to hook for a session now. 

I think the entire lifting mindset is different in some camps.  I train like Craig does in using the gym to get stronger.  The entire body stronger.  Not thinking of rep speed or explosiveness in relation to the throw, just getting stronger in each muscle group like a body builder taking the body apart.  The idea is to use throwing and throwing drills to make you throw better and be strong from the gym.

Some people look for movements that mimick a throw and use them to get stronger.  They are thinking of the lift in regard to the throw, speed and technique.  I would guess this crowd is not doing weighted pull ups. 

Wayne Hill wrote: Wow, that is excellent, excellent work, considering the circumstances. It really is easy to get used to going beltless, isn't it? -Wayne

Heh, are you joking? I like the feeling of power in my core that it provides, but lifting au fresco is tough for me, especially when squatting. One thing about lifting this way combined with a shitload of situps: it gives me a kind of distended gut.

All in all, it's a good experience that I'll keep going with. Back on the DL's, I'm pretty convinced that I personally need DL's and GM's, as opposed to one or the other.

MJurkoic wrote: I am a big believer in lifting without a belt unless absolutely necessary. It insures that nothing is left out.

For what it's worth, I also agree with this 100%.  Once you get used to not wearing a belt, it becomes a non-issue until you get near your 1RM, when a belt would likely help you move more weight if that is your goal.  However, I literally never wear one.  This definitely improves your core strength.

Matt,

I just started getting back into lifting last summer after approximately a 15 year layoff.  I am 40 years old and currently weigh about 255 with just a slight gut at 6'3" tall.  My current totally raw (no belt, knee wraps, etc.) 1RM lifts from just before Christmas (they would be about 20 pounds more now) are Front Squat - 335 (done ATG - no old PR), Back Squat - 425 (done Olympic style well below parallel - old official PR was 500 as a lean 215 pound 19 year old, obviously totally clean), Power Clean - 265 (old PR was 300, and 285 any day), Hang Power Snatch - 185 (minimal dip, just getting into these - no old PR), Push Press - 225 (just getting into these - no old PR), Deadlifts - NA (but I certainly could NOT do 500 pounds in the full, conventional style). 

I can't do flat benches anymore due to a shoulder injury from playing beach volleyball over 15 years ago (doh!!!) and have had some rotator cuff impingement issues since I started training again as well, so I haven't done much with the incline dumbell presses yet.  For what it's worth, my old PR in the flat bench with just a slight bounce was 365 ( I got to within 2" of lockout with 405 with a reasonable bounce with no pad - I had very limited triceps strength and probably had 16" arms at the time).

I am looking to improve the current maxes listed by about 20% by the end of June (if training goes well etc etc).

Peter.

Matt,

I live in a suburb just west of of Toronto, Canada.  I try to get together with Harvey Barkauskas and Berle Conrad near London occassionally (this is a long trek for me and I have a wife and two young boys, so...).

I look forward to meeting you this season - perhaps at Alma or the MWC?  I would also love to hear from any throwers located in the Greater Toronto Area or north-west of Toronto.

Peter.

K-Monster wrote: Heh, are you joking? I like the feeling of power in my core that it provides, but lifting au fresco is tough for me, especially when squatting. One thing about lifting this way combined with a shitload of situps: it gives me a kind of distended gut.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Silverback wrote: Some people look for movements that mimick a throw and use them to get stronger.  They are thinking of the lift in regard to the throw, speed and technique.  I would guess this crowd is not doing weighted pull ups.

There's meaty goodness in all of it for sure. Actually, I need to start getting on the chinups, because that exercise was a prime indicator that something was wrong with my shoulder prior to surgery. If I can work up to a few good chins, then I'll know my shoulder is back.

Wayne Hill wrote: You say that like it's a bad thing. -Wayne

Well, it just feels wierd. Like I'm tight in the gut. Feel real strong though.