Recently, I have been helping a local thrower improve her hammer form and while doing this, I recalled a section of Tony Dziepak's http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/8682/heavy/proposed.htm - website that suggested women's hammers weights were to heavy. At first, I was not sure if I agreed with his conclusion but the empirical evidence shows women hammer weights are disproportionately heavier than men's hammer weights. 

If one used the logic that women throw half the men's weights, women's hammers would be 8 and 11 pounds or if one used the stance that men's hammers are under weight and they should throw twice the women's weights, then men's hammers should weight 24 and 32 pound.

First Some interesting graphs of results when women throw 1/2 the weight of what men throw:

These graphs are the percentile distribution of the men's and women's best throws from the NASGA Ranking database.  They show that in the weights, when the women throw half the weight as men, they generate relatively similar results.

At the 0.750 level or the 75th percentile, men throw about 54 feet and women throw about 50 feet.  Or 75% of the men's best throw was 54 feet or less and 75% of the women's best throws were 50 feet or less.

Now looking at the results for the hammers:

The distribution of Women's Best throws are not similar to the distribution of men's Best throws.  This clearly demonstrates either the men are throwing disproportionately lighter hammers OR women are throwing disproportionately Heavy Hammers (this conclusion is based on the distribution of results for LWFD, HWFD, and WOB where women throw 1/2 of the men's weight and generate results similar to men).

One last graph to look at -- The distribution of a Thrower's best heavy hammer distance to their best light hammer distance put into a distribution for men and women

Observations:

• The ratio of the women's best heavy hammer throw to their best light hammer throw is "flatter" than men's. 
  
  It is hard to say why this is true unless more digging is done. Perhaps this is due to the disproportionate "heavier" weight women throw. 
  
• This graph may answers the question of whether women will out throw the hammer field if they used "appropriate" proportional weights 
  
  It appears that women's heavy hammer distance will be about 85% of their light hammers distance  OR  that their light hammer's Distance will be about 120% of their heavy hammer.

So if women start throwing 8# and 11#, the new light hammer distance will be more than 120% of the old light hammer (as that was 12# not 11#)  and the resulting new light hammer throw can be safely done on any field that men's light hammers throw can be safely performed. --- women's 12# record is 120' x 1.20 = 144 feet ...

men light hammer record is 156

To draw meaningful conclusion, from this graph, more digging needs to be done on why the difference in numbers.

My question to those who have been around this sport of a while:  How did women's hammer weights get set? 

I am assuming they were set so that the games/AD's could save cost and use the mens's light hammer for women's heavy hammer.  Can anybody confirm or dispell this believe?

Since there is no governing body, AD's along with others are the keepers of the rules and traditions of the games, I ask one final question:

Should the women's hammer minimum weights be dropped to 11 and 8 pounds (still can use the 12# hammer as the weights are minimums)?

One last graph to emphasize my point:

Glaring inconsistency are annoying to me and they beg the question of why do they exist. 

So I ask, why are women's hammer weights set at 12 and 16 pounds when in other events they throw half the men's weight?

Is there a logical reason?  If the weights for women's hammer were set to save money... then that in itself is a compelling reason to change to lighter weights. 

There are people on the board who were throwing when women started participating, so an answer on why women's weights are at 12 and 16 pounds should be out there and not lost in time.

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In the events were the weights are well defined and were women throw half the men's weight, the distribution of the best throw from NASGA's database are similar. 

In the hammer, the women throw implements that are more than half the weight of the men's, there is noticeable and glaring disparity in results.

Why the difference? why not half the weight?  Why shouldn't women be given an implement that flies to similar distance as men?

If male throwers dropped a couple of 5# plates on their 22# hammer (makes for a 32# hammer which is twice the women's heavy hammer) and takes some swings and even throw it a few times ... perhaps the point I am trying to make will be come clearer.  It is much more difficult to throw a 32# hammer and not any where near as much fun as the 16# or 22# hammer.  Nor is the distance thrown very impressive. 

I am not putting this argument forward because I think women can't throw their hammer weights.  I putting it forward because I noticed the inconsistency and believe hammer throwing should be fun and impressive to the public.  I further wonder why women shouldn't be allowed the same impressive distances as men (rhetorical question)?

A plot of the Women's Light (12# hammer) verses Men's Heavy (22# Hammer) should also drive the point home that women's hammer weights are heavy compared to the comparable men's weights. 

It is not a reach to assume that if the current women's light hammer weighed 1 lb less (so that it equals 1/2 of the men's Heavy Hammer weight), the comparison of results would make the graph more consistent ...

This graph in it self underscores the argument that women's hammers weights are disproportionately heavy as it graphs Men's heavy hammer to women's results for a hammer 1# heavier than what should be the Women's heavy hammer weight.  

This drives home the point that women don't need to practice more. 

weaselking wrote: What about sheaf, then?

I would rather avoid the sheaf issue as there is much variability within the classes (16# or 20# for men and 10# or 12# for women) that drawing meaningful inference from the plot maybe unwise.  However, the plot does demonstrate that women are not hitting the same height as men are for the same percentile and bears similarities to the hammer plots:

If

If one followed the pattern that Women throw half the weight of men, then the women are throwing the equivalent to the men's heavy bag (20#) and the men's 25# sheaf bag used in a few pro games.

In other words, if logic was in play, one would think the women's bag would be 8# and 10# rather than 10# and 12#.  Some will put forth the argument that throwing the 12# bag is still better than throwing the men's light bag (16#), which is true but still does not explain why 10 and 12 pound bags came about. 

Sheaf weights keep changing as the abilities and techniques drive higher throws and topping out of the uprights.  Not everybody has a set of 40' uprights!

Further, I am afraid the argument for changing the sheaf will dilute what I consider a solid case for women's hammers being lighter.  However, the only way women's hammers will be come lighter is if women throwers demand the lighter weights and consistency rather than a fat old male AD of a podunk highland games. 

Women's Hammers should be compareable to the men's hammers as are the other weights. That little bit of a weight adjustment should change the women's hammer numbers significantly.

Alright, I had a long talk with Merl over the weekend about this subject.  He is going to make an 8 lb. hammer and we are going to field test it.  I want to see how it will fly, if it will be too light, etc.  I see no reason NOT to change it for a couple of reasons.  First, is that as you showed, it is not in line with the other weights.  Secondly, I have seen many women throwers that cannot get enough momentum to get the heavy hammer over their heads.  Thankfully, few of them have gotten hurt, but many have come very close.  I think it's worth consideration.  I have no problem with making the light hammer into our heavy hammer.  12 lbs. is fine for that, and we wouldn't have to make another set of weight to adjust for one pound.  We have not made the switch, I want that clear.  We are having one made and we will field test it to see if it will work for our needs.

Again, if you have been on the field with women throwers who are new to the sport and are NOT from track & field or weightlifting backgrounds it is not a good weight for them.

Telling women they just need more practice is just a narrow minded suggestion.  If Mindy P cannot break 100 feet with a heavy hammer, there is something wrong!!

If you ever seen GUYS that do NOT have a T&F or weightlifting background, the mens hammers are not good weights for them. 

I think it has less to do with the hammers being too heavy, and more to the higher percentage of men with t&f/lifting backgrounds compared to the percentage of woman with t&f/lifting backgounds. As women competitions become more popular, and attracting more women with those backgrounds, I see that gap narrowing.

McSanta wrote: Glaring inconsistency are annoying to me and they beg the question of why do they exist.

Well said...

I have been involved in this sport for over 6 years.  I have been a spectator, competitor and certified judge a multitude of times.  I have watched, judged, and thrown with men, women, and kids.  I made an educated statement based on many years of experience at all levels of the games.

I stand by what I said.  Mindy is the #1 women’s thrower in the world.  She tried out for the Olympics, and has a very strong track and field background.  She also currently holds 2 world records.  The weights are not in line as they are in all of the other events, and there is no valid reason why they were set this way.  This thread is not about men’s hammers.

As I previously stated, we are testing the weight.  Nothing has been changed, nothing is being changed at this time.  There is nothing wrong with testing a new weight, when there is such a disparity in numbers.  Mark is talking about having a 32 lb. hammer as an extra toy for people to try at Quad Cities next year.  I am anxious to see the numbers when the men throw it, and see what the marks are at that point.  Only then, can a better decision be made.

Krazy40 wrote: I think it has less to do with the hammers being too heavy, and more to the higher percentage of men with t&f/lifting backgrounds compared to the percentage of woman with t&f/lifting backgounds. As women competitions become more popular, and attracting more women with those backgrounds, I see that gap narrowing.

A very interesting point.   I do agree with you that the difference will narrow as more women with strength sports background get involved.

You do see this in the top 5 to 10 percentiles (90 to 100) of the graphs (the longer throws) where those women responsible for those throws have been involved in strength sports and/or track and field. 

Yet, a LARGE disparity between distances still exists in the hammers.  If your conjecture fully explained the difference in results, we would see the women's hammer distance approach and/or exceed the men's hammer distance as it does in LWFD, HWFD, and WOB.   It does not, which means there is another explanation for the differences.

To further emphasize that the background (Mindy is a fine example) does not explain the difference, review the world records for the events where women throw 1/2 the weight of men.  With the top athlete of both genders performing the event, the element of not having a strength sport background is factored out and the results should be close to unity or 100%. 

In events where women throw 1/2 the weight of men, there is a small difference in results with the men throwing just a wee bit farther than women.  

Now review the results for the hammers:

We see a huge disparity in the world records for men and women under the current hammer weights.  This cannot be explained by athletic background of the throwers.

The best comparison that can be done for comparing results for hammer weights the way (I believe) they should be is to compare men's 22lb hammer (MHH) world record to women's 12 lb  hammer (WLH) world record, remembering that women are throwing 1lb or 9.09%over 1/2 of the men's weights.  

This is done in the above table in the MHH:WLH line.  The results are narrowed dramatically.

If an assumption is made that a Women's 11lb World Record would be 9.09% longer than the record set with the 12lb hammer, the comparison would lead to even narrower differences.

Mens/Womens = 106.49%
Womens/Men = 93.91%

This underlies the point that women's hammers should be 1/2 the weight of men's hammers.

Topaz,

I didn’t mean to come across as attacking your comment. I apologize if it sounded that way. I was just saying men without experience in either of those backgrounds also have similar problems with the weight of the hammers.

I would add: though I disagree that the weights should be changed, the numbers don’t lie.  The weights were probably picked for economic reasons instead of logic.

I think testing the 8lbs and 32lbs should be interesting.  My prediction: the 8lbs will be too light and the 32lb will fly decent, after a short relearning(if that is a word) curve.

No matter how the disparity in results looks on paper, there are a few concerns for those who run athletic area when considering lowering the minimum women's hammer weights to 8 and 11 pounds:

1. Cost of two new hammers:  In reality this could very easily be the cost of one new hammer since the current women's 12# hammer could be used as the weights are minimums
   
   
2. Durability and structural soundness of the hammer:  I did not think of this issue but Merl Lawless and Topaz G-S certainly have. 
   
   Some rough estimates assuming a 7.5# head and 1/2" PVC handle w/ fat end embedded 1" into the bottom of the head:
   
   4" diameter spherical shape should be a bit taller than 1/2 of a sphere or about 2-1/4" tall (1.75" inches under a perfect sphere).
   
   3.5" diameter sphere should be 2.85" tall or 0.65" short of being a perfect sphere
   
   Using 3/4" PVC handle will make the hammers taller and would generate almost a full sphere with a 3.5" diameter.
   
   The measurements, if accurate, appear to provide enough metal to make a solid hammer. 
   
   
3. Will the women out throw the men's light hammer field with a 8# hammer?  (or is the women's hammer to light)
   
   Women's current 12# world record is 120'-1" which if you made an adjustment for it being 1# (9.09%) heavier than Half the men's weight or 11#, could be about 130' (a crude adjustment)
   
   130 * Men's Light Hammer record/men's heavy hammer record should yield an idea of the range that a women's world record would be for a 8# hammer -- this value is 156 feet and change which is right at the men's world record for light hammer.  (dare I say more evidence for using 1/2 men's weight)
   
   

This is all done on paper as a theoretical exercise.  Actual results will not be know until hammers are made and tested. 

However, points #2 and #3 should reassure those interested that this is not a futile exercise and that there is a good possibility that Women's minimum hammer weights of 8# and 11# are plausible limits.

This should make for an interesting spring to see if theory and practice are the same. 

T& F is T& F!!!!keep the weights the way they have been...with todays technologies and better training regimes-it would be sad to change the womens weights(they know what it is and how much it weights when they get in the sport)..different things evolve in sports thru theyears-don't let one of them be changing womens hammers....

and no I am not some sexist pig...my wife throws as well as my 19yrold and 14 yr old daughter(and when my daughters complained about the 16hammer I said just suck it up and throw!)

The period of time that women have been throwing in heavy athletics does not allow the use of tradition as a credible argument to defend the weights they have been throwing. 

Why let a decision based on cost and not logic (or competition or .... ) which was made less than 20 years ago dictate (or damn) a vibrant and dynamic throwing division to disproportionately heavy weights in the hammer event when that is not done in any other event? 

I plan on giving the new weights a try at my games to see if thery are practical.  This will be done through a challenge event or perhaps in competition. However, I am not forcing this on any other games. I however, have made a strong case on why they should be lowered, but ultimately, it is up to the women throwers to decide.

I apologize for repeating information in prior posts of this tread.  However, I believe the following three graphs do a better job of illustrating my point about the Women's hammer weights.

In the events (*) were women throw half the weight as men, the resulting distance of men and women are about the same as can be seen in the LWFD. 

* All events means the events where the weights are well defines: WOB, LWFD, and HWFD.  Sheaf shows some indications of the same phenomenon but I do not have raw data to do a proper comparison as there are 16, 20, and 25 pound bags for men and 10 & 12 pound bags for women.  I have not reviewed the stone events

However, this does not hold true in the hammers as seen in the heavy hammer plot below and also holds true for the light hammer.  As we all know, in these events women do not throw half the men's weight.

Clearly, the women's distance are shorter than men. On average, 15' shorter for women in the heavy hammer and 23' for the light hammer.

How would women fair if they threw 1/2 the weight of men?  Cannot exactly answer that but when comparing the results for mens' heavy hammer (at 22#) to women's results for their light hammer (at 12#), we can certainly get an idea:

then the rest of the questions come into play that have been answered in my prior posts. 

Kilted Canuck wrote: ... Your question about where did they come up with 16lbs and 12lbs for the women's hammers is a good question. If you follow the history of women throwing in this sport, whatever was considered the men's light in any event, was then used as the women's heavy implements. I would assume that when women started throwing there was not many of us and therefore, at many of the games we would at least have the heavy to throw since the men's light implements would always be available....

Your post makes sense which also leads to the discrepancies between men and women's hammer results as the men's light implement is not 1/2 the weight of the heavy implement (thank goodness as few games would have field size for men to throw a 11# hammer!)

It also can be a weak argument to keep the women's hammer weights were they are as it could be state that "it is "tradition" for women to throw half the weight of men" 

Kilted Canuck wrote: .... As how they got the 12lbs, is strange because if it where to follow the men's hammers it would be 6lbs lighter difference so therefore you would think it would be 10lbs, since the mens are 16 & 22lbs. ....

my guess on why 12#:  22/16 = 1.375  and 16/X = 1.375  which implies X=11.636363.  Round up and you have 12.

However, if the minimum weights was switched to 11 and 8, half the men's weights, the ratio of heavy to light hammer is preserved exactly at 1.375.

Kilted Canuck wrote: .... In a majority of games for the Sheaf the standard is 20lbs men, 10lbs women and 16lbs for Master men, there are a few exceptions where the women's is heavier.

Organizations with Women sheafs at 12#

• NASGA
• Mid-Atlantic Scottish Athletics' rules - http://www.heavyevents.com/rules/index.php - http://www.heavyevents.com/rules/index.php
• Scottish American Athletic Association - http://www.saaa-net.org/rules/rules_2003.PDF - http://www.saaa-net.org/rules/rules_2003.PDF

Organisations with 10# Women Sheafs or no limit given:

• RMSA
• USAD 
• Scottish Heavy Athletics - does not give a weight for women sheafs
  

I do agree with you that the 10# bag is becoming the standard bag and hopefully the rules will change to reflect this trend. 

Curious question: Have you heard any masters women asking for a lighter bag?

Kilted Canuck wrote: ...  For many years women had asked me why when we are of Masters age, why our weights dont decrease like the mens do... well for the first time ever.. this year at the WMC.. the women in th 50+ division threw a 20lb heavy WFD and 20lb WOB.   Again thank you for bringing up a subject I have pondered since I started throwing & running games.  Karyn Dallimore

I am happy to see the development of a lighter throwing weight for Masters-Women.  I think it is a great move for this sport.  However, I believe it needs to be standardized and made consistent with other areas of the sport.  I believe it needs to be:

• Applied to 40 and over
• The weight needs to be bumped up by 1 pound.

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the reason why I believe the weight needs to be raised from 20 to 21 pounds:

The 20 pound weight is probably from track and field rather than paying respect to Scottish heritage/tradition of using stone weights. Also, the 20# weight does not remotely make logical sense. 

The topic of 20# weight for senior masters was brought up once in a General Forum Tread titled http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5693 - Weights for Older Throwers .   http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=569 3 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=569 3 .   

Expressing the weights in stones easily shows the illogical of a 20# weight for women (and senior masters) and I hope it changes before it gets set in stone (no pun intended).

• 4/2 stones for Men's heavy/light weights (2 to 1 ratio between heavy to light)
• 2/1 Stone for Women's heavy/light weights (2 to 1 ratio between heavy to light)
• 3/2 Stones for Masters men heavy/light weights (1.5 to 1 ratio between heavy to light)

What makes more sense:

• 1.5/1 stones or 21/14 pounds for Women's masters heavy/light weights

Or

• 1.4285714285714285714285714285714/1 stones or 20/14 pounds for women masters heavy/light weights

Clearly a 1.5 to 1 ratio is more consistent than a 1.42857 to 1 ratio.

but then again, what do I know and what is one pound?  One pound is the difference between keeping the traditions embedded in our sport and track and field event.  Something that we all hold near and dear.

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Squeaky wheels get oiled, so it is up to the women throwers to call for changes that affect them by talking to and lobbying the AD's of the games they go to.  

As a maker of Highland Games equipment, thought I would chime in on this.  The reason I started making a 20# Weight is that the Capital District Games in New York started a 60 years + Super Master's Class to attract some of the top athletes from the past, Jim Pauli, Ed McComas, Bill Bailey etc.  Someone decided to use a 20# for LWFD and a 35# for HWFD and WFH. Being over 60 myself this sounded like a great idea.  I have been trying to promote this class ever since by making the 20# and 35# weights. It would be no problem to bump it up to 21#.  My wife, Pat Shema competes in the Women's Master's Class. She is also over 60.  She started bugging me as to why the Women's Masters throw the same weight equipment as the Women's Class and how they came up with the weights of the Women's Class equipment.  As a start to try an encourage more Women to join in the fun competing, we made some changes at the Games where I am the AD.  We have a Women's Junior Class, up to 18 yrs, and a Women's Master's Class, 40 yrs +.  These classes both use: the 20# for LWFD and WFH. We have found in training new Women that the 28# is just too intimidating in the WFH unless they have a strong background in track and field or weight training.  We got Bill Scruggs to agree to using the 20# at the 2008 MWC for a 50+ Class. If we are going to encourage more Women to compete I agree we should adjust the weights of the equipment as suggested here in these postings.  The crowd really enjoys seeing the Women compete at my games.