These posts were lost when The Ring upgraded its server several years ago. I cannot find them anywhere else anymore, so I thought I would post them here. Not strictly HG, but somewhat useful and no doubt very interesting for some people.
Ulf Timmerman visits the Ring as “ShotPutter”…
I do not think that people can ignore what past champions (Sarul, Timmermann, Beyer) did.
If you look at these results you list for bench (405,550,700) you can find in these the reasons for the athletes performance.
For these athletes did not throw the same distances, Sarul 21.69m, Beyer 22.64m and Timmermann 23.06m.
The reason is not in the bench results, but how they got them.
Sarul was naturally very fast and trained to maximise this and threw OK. He threw OK distance 21.69m (one year over 21m). Short peak due to speed base peak. (one year)
Beyer was naturally very strong and trained to maximise this and threw better distance 22.64m (thirteen year over 21m). Long peak due to strength base peak.
Timmermann was naturally very fast, BUT trained for strength. So got the best of both worlds and threw farthest, 23.06m (medium size peak - five years) but in that peak, peaked the highest and had more 22m putts than anyone else in history by far.
You must learn from the mistakes of others (no matter how great they appear) if you wish to learn
I am interested in uses of the light shot, why are you doing this.
I think that I use only heavy shots (12k,10k, 9k, 8k) and normal shot in training. I have even competed with 8 & 9k in a meeting.
Heavy shot teaches how to move shot ball fast, its heavy and to throw far you must learn to move shot ball fast.
Light shot I think just teaches thrower to move fast, but in comparison to him ball only moves same speed.
Fast ball is required?
How does this work for you?
I know zero from Rotational Spin Putters. I speak only for Linear, is the different, I find it interesting.
Sarul did it I know, but that was really because he was a wimp, he didnt like to trained too much and did many things to make life less stressful.
I dont know of other putters from today, do they use them? The boy Nelson or Hunter, Blom and Godina.
What do they do, they seem fine throwers indeed, are they using light shots in training?
Please advise me, I find this most interesting.
But Barnes is better than them all, definitely performing wonders with excellent but not unbelieveable strength levels. And a fairly long run at the top of the heap as well.
And I do not want to hear about the drug issue-that's all speculative as far as I'm concerned, except for athletes for whom a government record of their anabolic intake exists.
Too bad those guys never learned to spin.
Randy Barnes was a very nice shot putter.
I dont think he was a isw the best shot putter them all.
He was a good competitor and threw a long way, but he was never really at the very top apart from in 1990. He still had defeats in this 1990 year and his 1996 year had many.
The best era for putters was cut short, 1988-1992 should have been incredable, but sadly, Timmermann lost his support from the state and shattered knee cap, Gunthoer had very wrong back injury (after this time never penetrate right hip) and Barnes got caught.
If these three had thrown for this period as before, record could be close to 24m now.
But this is all guess, I feel strong also for Mike Stulce, good putter in time, maybe had right head for competition too.
I would say Barnes was good indeed, but place others better.
Randy had one year 1990 at top of his game.
Todays putters are also good, I am sorry for old talk, I respect your opinion but I know this period better than you. Sorry.
I know nothing from todays America, please can you tell of these people Mr Caster.
I have read your posts for some time and feel you are a man of knowledge. What do you know of todays men.
I do not think the coaches of the CCCP were better than that of the DDR. The CCCP had many more athletes to choose from and choose the wrong physical types, always to round and bulky to throw.
Baryshnikov was about the best and he was not that good. But he did have his time against Udo Beyer so he had hard life.
Kiselyov won the Olympic games but this is a joke, he never deserve that title but that is another storey.
The best putter from CCCP is close to being Bagash, a very sound technique and good throw.
CCCP had many more people to choose and failed to match DDR. CCCP only have best in Hammer Throw.
In shot is DDR, in discus id DDR in Javelin is DDR.
CCCP has many people like USA
Not all things in DDR or CCCP good for throwing. In these places everything was controlled, no individuals of special needs.
Brian Oldfield would not have been a thrower in DDR or CCCP, or John Powell. Wilkins no also and certainly not Deal.
These are your great USA throwers, so the DDR CCCP system had as many problems as yours system.
USA is good too. You have much to learn from yourself.
I think USA coaches and DDR coaches as a team would produce the very best.
The difference in research I dont know of this at all.
In means of training the CCCP putter trained in the old style strength set like an old style weightlifter with press. They had very strong and round throwers. High power but no looseness in the middle lots of overhead lifting and squatting and cleaning. Smirnov had 230k clean and jerk.
DDR putters trained to throw shot not to lift weights. CCCP putters nearly all had bad technique and style Kiselyov, Smirnov Gravyushin all poor style.
Only Buder and Beyer had poor style from DDR. Young Beyer had good style even very good. But most good style.
Smirnov was very good in strength and power. 21m with 8.5k.
All CCCP putters look the same. Under old CCCP system Bagash would have thrown 22m, Beleonog is unusual, more from Timmermann style. Klimenko very typical CCCP.
The difference came from about 1970, before this time things for shot and hammer in CCCP was the same.
Rudenkov, Klim are from this time (180 clean, 170 bench, 250 squats). Then Bondarchuk was the transfere time, even early for sedykh was like this upto around 1976 Olympics then change.
Much more throwing and less traditional lifting do not know why really, think research on sedykh from this time said 78m throw was harder than a 130k snatch, or the same, but he had only 110k so throwing replaced many times lifting.
Sedykh does not say he lifted any heavier weight best performances from days of 78m in 1976 (110 bench, 110 snatch, 230 squat and 155 clean) up until 86m in 1984 (115 snatch, 240 squat and 160 clean).
Do not know more really.
Great difference in DDR and CCCP hammer throwers was taking strength to a level. DDR hammer throwers much stronger in the gymnasium but not in the throw.
Haber (142.5 snatch, 300 squat) and Rodehau much (155 snatch and 330 squat).
Both also have close to 80m with 8.25k for just 83m with 7.26k.
Sedykh have 78m with 8.25k but 86m.
Running and Jumping tests performed every four, six or eights
weeks depending on time of year.
Standing long jump, three hops on left, three hops on right,
60m or 100m run. Also overhead shot and other games for
Not much, not like the in the CCCP they did many jumps from
In DDR mainly games and tests.
My mistake I was under the feeling that we are talking about
throwers not children.
Children should be allowed to find there strength and enjoy
them in the DDR this was part basis of talent selection for
But once they are already training it is the weaknesses that
must be eliminated to produce top results.
For example Mr C J Hunter is a good thrower he is very
strong also I think. If he continues to get stronger he may still
throw another few cm. This is his strength however if he trains
for his weakness mobility and speed he would in my opinion
But i stress again I have not knowledge of spin style and am
just learning (with help from the ring). But if he was a glider
this would be true.
What I mean is Drabik would be correct if an athlete at 13
years shows good shot putting then he doesnt need to high
jump train. But at 18 if he is very strong and slow he needs to
I see your mail address is BGreen, are you Bill Green? I think
I have seen you thrown were you not an american hammer
thrower of about 80m?
I noticed in your post to 24-7 at 04:39 that you mentioned
"heavy shot for speed" at the very end of the post.
I have found the heavy shot to be the best way to develop
shotput related speed. Better than anything else.
I have found very few Americans who believe this. You have
already seen the argument regarding light shots and speed
and all the rest being presented here. I usually end up with
people telling me that I am crazy, but it is hard to ignore what
produces results. I believe that ignoring the results would
probably be the crazy part.
I discussed this matter with Klaus Bartonietz and he has made
comments that are just like yours. We have experienced good
results from his recommendations.
As you would guess, the subject of Sarul came up and I believe
he regarded Sarul as the exception rather than the rule. He
also stated earlier studies using light shots with youths which
did not turn out too well, and resulted in a lot of injuries.
I believe that you plainly stated earlier how you viewed the
Sarul situation (I am still laughing about it).
In practical application and in all honesty, we have found light
shots to provide timing problems and sore elbows, and that's
about it. And practical application has showed us that the
distances thrown when using light shots for any time stretch
whatsoever decreases performance by a large enough degree
that it is noticeable, along with the sore elbow.
We will probably be melting down all our light shots before
September training starts and making heavy ones out of them.
An interesting observation-this spring, we went to a contest in
which my daughter was throwing against another freshman girl
who is of very similar ability. She is a very nice girl and it is
always fun when they compete because they are so close in
ability. It is a friendly rivalry. And the other girl has a very
keen sense of humor.
Well, to this one specific meeting, the other girl brought a
brass boy's shot (here in the US, the highschool boys throw a
12 lb shot-about 5.44kg). Before warm-ups, she brought it over
to me, handed it to me and said, "do you know what this
means?" I said, "I know what it IS, but I do not know what it
MEANS." She said, "it means your girl's gonna get whupped
today." She then proceeded to warm up with the heavier shot,
and take no warm-ups at all with the contest shot. Because it
was brass, it was the same size as her regular shot, just
heavier. So she was obviously comfortable with it.
Well, she beat my daughter well (37cm) and we remembered
the lesson. As a matter of fact, all her attempts exceeded my
daughter's best that day. And this clear lesson hit home later
in the season when we went to state qualifiers, and the strict
officials would NOT let the same girl bring her heavy shot
onsite to warm up with. I was very curious to see what the
outcome would be without the other girl having the heavier
shot to warm up with. The result was quite different, my
daughter was able to beat her by 1.19m. I will never forget this
lesson . . . and with all this in mind, any insights you would like
to share with us regarding the usage of heavy shots would be
greatly appreciated. I am curious specifically if this is just a
short-run phenomenon we are experiencing with her, or if the
heavier shots will end up being a requirement for speed and
special strength throughout her training life?
I would also like to hear your opinions on the use of a heavier
shot to warm up with before a meeting.
Thank you very much for your help. Your recent posts have
been fun to read and very informative.
I speak only for shot putt glide I dont know spin you must put
your own knowldege to use.
Heavy shot for elite performer is a must.
Heavy shot for sub elite is a must.
Heavy shot for begineer is a must.
You must first establish basic technique then go ahead, only
during use of heavy shot will you see how to move from basic
to advance technique.
I speak of times and knowledge of drug athletes yes. But then
I know that not all athletes took drugs and not all athletes now
In my days on the athletes who threw far took drugs and I
think is same now.
But drugs athletes does not make knowledge useless. Mr
Smith I know is a well respected man in USA and gives much
time to throwing.
His athlete I have seen, in DDR of 1980's she would throw
23m. In germany of today we have give who throw same
Kleinert (who is young AND has NEVER TAKEN DRUGS)
and is better than smith.
She has less talent than smith but she has only very poor
technique, smith has very very very poor technique. Smioth
could thorw 20.5m with better technique coaching or better
motor skills I dont know which. But as I have only seen two
USA gliders with any decent technique ever I think coaching is
Drugs drugs drugs, without Drugs Slupianek would have
thrown 21m. Without drugs Klienert will throw 21m in next 4
Astrid will win in Sydney.
We dont know spin but glide we do.
Mr Smith I find much interest in what you have to say. I have
a number of points.
Do you judge the vaule of a glide on how much it adds to
stand? That is wrong I think, best glide techniques of
Gunthoer, Timmerman, Andrei all got gains of 1.5-1.0m. On
actual best close to 1m.
Drugs in DDR stopped sept end 1988, so to be drug free you
must be post 1974 birth. Kleinert is top, but young she will
throw far, Beckel, Beyer and Kluge will also all throw 20m, all
drug free, all former DDR BUT NOT FROM SYSTEM.
I have read ring for sometime, you are ring heavyweight Mr
Smith, but closed to ideas.
I come to ring to learn rotational shot putt ideas and to pass on
some things of interest.
What do you come to learn? Do you know all?
I dont wish to be unnice, but I feel you could coach german
girls to 3m differential too, but only by giving 15-16m stand
I am not going to tell you Astrid took drugs but work out thye
As for Ms Smith stand 18-19m and game over, well you dont
get the point.
When she stands 19m her gain to glide will be only 1-1.5m, but
result in record for her and better consistent.
Yes Mr Smith you are getting something you should spend as
much time standing as gliding and you must land from glide in
Look at some good throwers and see. Only real problem is
conversion phase from pull to push this takes time.
Slupianek was no good in technique (22m stand) but Astrid
I came to join the ring because a friend encouraged me.
I wanted to learn rotational shot (as we struggle for this in
Germany) a reason for this I think is our Discus style being so
I thinked I could repay this knowledge with a little information
on linear throw.
I did not wish to insult
I did not wish my mail address published Nand been known
becaue of abuse my friend has receieved in past for mailing.
I apologise to all I have insulted, all I say in defense is my
english is not good. You try mail in german and you also will
USA system has much to offer and very good things especially
today in rotational world. In women no, in men yes and
German system there isnt one, but we have good things too in
women and little mens too.
I cam e to learn not insult. Learn from each other someone
said need USA talent and DDR system not true, need a mix of
DDR and US system.
DDR for glide, USA for spin.
Thank you for your time in discussion Mr Smith.
I admire that you stick to your guns. I do still think your wife
has very poor technique and I believe I could get her to stand
18-19m and and throw 20m+, but we will never know. I do
know I have helped women do this and will help more.
Good luck in the future. I watch your wife in sydney and see
her left side dissapear or her shot come of line and miss the
medal she could easily get.
I wish you well.
I have made two new friends on the ring who will help me with
rotational knowledge and in exchange I will help with
knowledge from system that produced some of the finest
linear throwers, discus throwers and women in world.
In US I dont know anyone who knows our old system, you
have read a book and look with your eyes but you MUST
UNDERSTAND BOOK IS LIES and your eyes only seen was
Nevrmind, thank Mr Carr for help and the ring. I hope I have
interesred more people than insultant with bad languaue. Good
luck, throw far and loud as JD says.
I did for a while
8/29/00 Bill Green on Timmerman’s visit.
I believe that we have indeed enjoyed the participation of Ulf
Timmerman in our discussion group, and say once again how
truly amazing this technology has proven to be.
From the begining of his commentary it was clear to me that
"Shotputter" was either an elite thrower or a coach in the
inner sanctum of the communist throwing community in the
1980's. Look closely at his editorial comments outside of those
that rankled John Smith: knowledge of specific lifting numbers
for many athletes, opinions on relative throwing ability
with/without drugs, his comment that drugs became
unavailable in the DDR in 1988, his knowledgeable timeline
on when some individuals were better technically versus when
their technique diminished, his seeminlgly unreasonable (from
anyone of lesser stature) statement that only two American
shot putters have ever had good glide technique, his clearly
passionate nationalistic tone CCCP vs DDR and CCCP vs
USA, his thorough historical perspective-it all adds up.
Now on the question of the group scaring him off with contrary
commentary, you all know my opinions on the sometimes
nasty tone found here in the group. However, I dont see this
as a problem in this case. Frankly, I am surprised to see Ulf
Timmerman shy away from an intellectual battle in this forum,
even despite the communication barrier. Consider these
1) short of knowing someone of Timmerman's stature was
citicizing his wife's technique, why would John Smith not
challenge his opinion? Also, John's tone was as much
inquisitory as contradictory-witness the discussion on stand
throws and heavy implements
2) Ulf should have assumed that by entering anonymously his
strong opinions might seem a little forward. I have never
known an elite thrower that did'nt have pretty determined
opinions on fellow athletes, and most people begrudge those
opinions if the person making them has the proper authority.
Until that rank is established, I would think most people would
assume they might get a "who the Hell are you, anyway"
response until their identity is known
3) this is, obviously, a forum that is set up to encourage
healthy debate and information sharing. Timmerman came
seeking one, and I would have thought would not be disinclined
to share the other in exchange
Frankly, it somewhat surprises me that an athlete of this
stature would bow out of our forum as the result of a
competitive give-and-take. Seems out of character for such an
amazing competitor. Must be largely due to frustrations over
the language problem.
Also, I for one agree with John on the question of stand
throwing. As unquestionably accomplished as Ulf Timmerman
is in the annals of Track & Field, my coach always described
small stand/glide conversions as a deficit. Sure, it's great to
have a huge stand throw and improve it as much as you can
with strength and heavy implements, but Art's goal was always
an 8 foot conversion or better. I believe at 73' Brenner's best
stand was nver greater than 64'. Is'nt the goal to have a huge
stand throw and a great conversion due to technical
excellence, why would an athlete be limited to one or the
I must make one post more to make a more safe exit from the
ring. I have been reading more from the ring since I leave.
Due to bad languaue I am using it is clear that people have
wrong idea as to why I leave.
I leave for two reasons. One I can not get my languaue good
enough to argue with people. Mr Smith is not to blame for my
departure for anything he has did. He is not to blame for me to
go. Only in that I can not argue with him because I am not able
to make point in languaue.
Second reason is why I was unknown on the ring. I am a
shotputter in my heart but an just a name to people. I
understand this. As I recently tried to explain to a new good
friend I find thing bad in talking for shotputt. I am treated like
either god or devil and am not either. I threw shot I study shot
I learn shot I lived shot. I am the shotputter or atleast I was.
Seeing your effort at my tongue makes me see how stupid I
must appear in english.
For me to learn new from you I must be just an equal not god
who is always right or devil who is always wrong. To do this I
must be unknown. I am equal to all and better or worse than
no one but I am not treated as such.
It is most hard for me to lose such opportunity for new
knowledge and friends. But I can not even get my message on
heavy shot and standing throws to you in success. I try one
more time for leaving you without thinking I am stupid.
In DDR we tried for system to produce good throwers from
small number of people in a long line for many years. This we
did and then talent got hurted many times. This was from
gliding. So in effort to maximise distnace we look to stand as
important part. In this we use our heavy shot for many throws
and also from glide. In glide heavy shot gives you range range
range. You must have range to throw. Light shot loose range.
In Brenner glider he had big gain from stand I think I see
around 19m from him. But he did gain 3m for glide yes. This
was because he stand style was limited only small putt only
small range which he did for purpose. But he did have power to
throw 21-21.5m stand if stand done from proper style. But not
done for his coach reason I think. A reason I do not
understand. We used to train this way in DDR in long time
back. But problem occurred. To have poor stand ment must
glide many times. Many times glide broke the athlete. Sad
good bye to many hurt athlete. So changed this to new way. In
DDR we did not have enough talent to break many athlete
I hope I have succeeded in trying to help on this point of
interest. I do wish you all well and felt some proudness in
some posts to ring.
I must leave the ring to return to normal balance I will still
read but no more post.
I read with interest the views of many posters. Hunter has
tested positive. Let him fight his case. If he gets off then good
luck, if he does not then no more compete.
No person knows if anyone other person is on drugs or off
drugs. How much drugs when?
My rival Randy Barnes was caught twice for taking drugs. But
he argues against this. I am not Randy's mother, I do not
know what he did. No one knows except Randy. No one for
sure. Unless you see with own eyes you are not 100% sure.
All I know for sure for Randy Barnes is he was Olympic
Champion and is World Record Holder. More that that you
What I mean for use Randy as example is he was caught, but
could be innocent.
Udo, me, Gunthoer, Andrei, Brenner, Stulce, Smirnov, Godina,
Nelson, Baryshnikov, Feuerbach, all these, we were not
caught, but could all be guilty.
YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING to who took what. YOU
ARE GUESSING. Many people would not even know what
there wife was doing.
Let Hunter fight his case. Leave the man to fight for himself.
If he proves guilty then fine. But leave to to be. Even if he is
proved guilty then maybe he is not.
ALWAYS REMEMBER, Barnes was caught, I was not, do
you think we are much so different? Well Hunter is caught,
Nelson, Godina, Bloom are not (yet), but they are not so
All could be guilty, all could be innocent, YOU JUST DONT
KNOW, I dont know, all I know for 100% in me. All you know
for 100% is you.
Dont base for whole outlook on training and coaching on what
you assume, only work with what you know.
I have confidence in the ability of a doctor/scientist/nurse to
conduct a test in hospital/surgery and without any human
administrationing errors pass back to correct result from this
test and take the proper action. I did not wish to worry you my
friend, I hope you take courage from Englander Olympian
Radgrave who is sick as you.
What I dont have confidence in the the system used in sports
testing, which is not as such written above.
Tests in toilet, meeting room, taken by monkey, poor
supervisorion, people with to much to gain from positives can
influence tests. IAAF, IOC, Meet Promoters, Major Sponsors,
Televison Contractors all can influence tests. This I know, I
have witnessed, I have seen and in this very season not by
I have no clue as to Hunters guilt or incense, I wish him luck
and wish the truth to be known. What his personal truth is, I
dont know. All I wish to say is that ONLY HE WILL know,
even AFTER the test. ONLY HE will really know.
This answer is not what you want. My answer is that
everybodies has a different maximum throw without drugs.
I can not answer the question what is the maximum throw, let
aside for answer what is maximum without drugs, with drugs
on a tuesday or a wednesday.
Drugs are play no part for some throwers of very far
distances, they play small part to others and huge part to
Some types of thrower need drugs more than others, they also
have more benefit for the less mentally or physically talented
than for a real gifted.
I personally believe the maximum an athlete can throw is set
by themselves, there desire, there talent, belief, training
methods, injury recovery many factors.
Sorry to dissapoint, mayhave this statement is more to answer
your needs. Do I believe that (for example) an athlete could
set a world record without using drugs in the year 2000?
Yes. I do. Do I think anyone will?
No. I dont.
There is plenty of prize money avaliable in throwing.
Especially in grand prix years. Obviously the superstars like
Astrid and Lars get the most.
Further the done. Franka she has $15,000-20,000 per meet
What of USA Throwers. Those who dont make games team
should come to europe and compete, pick up finances, anyone
who can throw 20m/65ft regular can earn much prizes in
Europe. Why dont you USA men come to do this?
Is it because you will get many drug tests?
I dont understand why you dont come and collect money?
Three to six weeks for may thousnads even at this level? Why
Many different ways to start glide. Some good and others not
so good. Some for for only a few.
General principle is to have maximum drive from both legs.
But left leg must reach full extension first and then right leg
Me I try to get complete extension on left before right move
at all. To this reason is why I had my unusual start on two
toes. I have seen many people copy this but not so many
understand why to do this.
Shoulders must start lower than hips and still be lower than
hips when left is extended.
Try glide hops and straight left glide drills.
My idea is that you do need to look at top throw techniques.
But remember technique can be good from some worser
throwers too. You dont need to be great distance to be great
Remember you must also understand what is they are trying
to do and why, not just what you sees.
My personal favourites:
Shot Putt Glide: Past - Geis (DDR)
Present - Tigas (Greece) Naire (Fra)
(Sorry, spin I dont know)
Discus: Past - Schmidt (DDR) Silvester (USA)
Present - Fandino (Italy)
Javelin - Past: Hohn (DDR) Present Zelezny (TCH)
Only my personal choices for shot and discus. Javelin opinion
from Uwe (104m).