Posted: 3/10/10 at 8:13pm | IP Logged

The below link is to a website, which contains the issues as I have outlined in the past regarding Women's hammers as well as the results of the Survey taken last fall.

http://sites.google.com/site/womensscottishhammer/survey

34 out of about 160 women throwers responded to the survey - 21%. 

Their ability to throw the hammer is similar to the population of Women throwers (based on NASGA's 2009 Heavy Hammer throws ). -- so their should not be a bias based on ability to throw the hammer.

results were looked at based on:

• number of years in the game (less than 2 years, two to five years, and Six or more years in the games)
  
• Ability to throw the Hammer (based on NASGA's 2009 database) divided into two groups - good hammer throwers and not so good hammer throwers
  
• Height of throwers - 5'6" and under and over 5' 6"
  

Anyway I sliced and diced the data, it shows that the majority of those in the sample favored lowering the hammer weights to a weight which generate results similar to the men. 

9 and 12 lbs hammer seem the most practical even though they are more than 1/2 of the men's hammer weight -- These weights take  into account the traditions of this sport (by keeping the 12 pound records), is consistent with other throwing sports, and fulfills the view that implements that generate equivalent distance are appropriate and proper.

In all major throwing sports, only the Javelin generates the same disparity in distance -- Like the current light hammer weights, the Women's Javelin Weight weighs 75% (600 g / 800 g) of the men's Javelin. 

Shot put, discus, wire hammer, weight throws, weight over bar, ... women throw 1/2 the weight and generate equal results.

The best I can tell, the hammers weights were set for economic reasons as the division was considered novel.   The weights were not set based on logic, any kind of tradition (other than Scots are cheap or should I say frugal), or any insight

Even though the novelty tag has wore off a long time ago, the call to lower women hammer weights have been ignore for far to many years (I think Tony Dziepak was one of the first to make the call).  I hope that will not last for to much longer.  As for me, my co-AD and I will be using 9lb and 12lb hammers at all events which we are ADs.

I am only pointing out that the MINIMUM implement weight should be set to 9 and 12 pounds.  I am not trying to force anybody to change.  However, once the distance start going up and women get a hold of what is now called a super light hammer, they will start asking for the change.  Kind of like why few games use a 28 or 30 Braemar stone.

Setting the minimum weights to 9 and 12 pounds does not prevent AD's from using the disproportionately heavier 12 and 16 pound.

I hope other AD's come to the same conclusion and correct this long overdue oversight in implements used in our sport. 

Posted: 3/11/10 at 10:39am | IP Logged

The wire hammer folks put a lot of time and thought into the dimensions of the hammer for women (4K and 3'11"). I have always believed that similar dimensions would make for a better women's hammer in HG. Note that the big problem is weight not length (the length difference between men's and women's wire hammer is only 2cm). Women's light hammer should follow the weight standard used in men's light hammer. In particular, it should weigh the same as the open stone (9 pounds for women, 16 pounds for men).

All that said, I stand when I pee so I don't get to vote.

Posted: 3/11/10 at 12:13pm | IP Logged

Olympic hammer length and HG hammer length are really apples and oranges.  The spin in an Olympic throw has the hammer pretty high off the ground.  The spin in HG hammer has much higher and lower orbit points.

I for one have always felt that the length is wrong for most of the female competitors I have seen.  It has been way too obvious in a couple of games I've been to.

I support the idea of the weight on the hammer too, but since only new to HG I am basing that off my coaching/lifting experience.

Posted: 3/11/10 at 2:04pm | IP Logged

The below image may help in the discussion of the length of the Hammer Handle.  It is a very difficult subject as not only does the height of the thrower come into play, the length of the arms need to be factored in.  The Bubble is the number of throwers in the sample who were the given height and who chokedup the given amount on the handle.  In red text, I have also included this number.

Sorry - I can't get teh image to load  please go to this webpage to see it: 

http://sites.google.com/site/womensscottishhammer/Issues/rel easeangle

and scroll to the bottom of the page

Posted: 3/12/10 at 6:03am | IP Logged

THE ISSUE: the 50" hammer handle is used for both men and women. Women on average are shorter than men. Thus, a greater percentage of women will have problems doing winds and not hitting the ground at full handle length than men. Does this give taller women an unfair advantage due to equipment and if so, should the handle be shortened?

I will say I did not look at the length of the hammer handle as much as the weight because of the complexity of that issue. This is why I have just added a few more graphs of the data.    

Clearly, in the "numbers-geek-world", tall throwers do not have a great competitive advantage over shorter throwers because shorter throwers can adjust the release angle (thus avoiding choking up) by leaning backwards more and get equally competitive distance.

If this was possible, the questions become:

1. is the 50" handle expecting a greater level of athleticism from the shorter thrower to generate the same result (more than just the difference in the length of their levers)?
   
2. Is this level athleticism attainable by the masses or just elite athletes?

Real world VS Number-Geek-World: I am not an exercise physiologist and I do not have enough data to draw a conclusion. But I will point to the 5 shorter throwers who took the survey who  indicated they either did not choke up or choked up very little.

Of these 5, only one had her 2009's best heavy hammer throw in the top half of all NASGA Women throws for 2009. Another was close to the 50% mark. The other three did not fair as well.

Posted: 3/14/10 at 7:45am | IP Logged

I have not found a source for why the Olympic hammer for women is 3/4" of an inch shorter than men's hammer.  (3'11" and 3'11 3/4" ). 

It is most likely NOT do to height of the thrower. 

I think it has to do with the size of the women's ball and the drag caused by air resistence --- since the women's hammer head is smaller than men's, it will fly farther.  Thus, for safety reasons, they shortened the length slightly to ballance the less drag.   This would keep them from out throwing the field. 

For a throw of 70m with the  men's implement, air resistance will reduce the distance thrown by  approximately 1.5m (Tutevich 1967). The women's implement has a surface area which is 75% of that of the men's implement. Therefore we can estimate that air resistance may reduce the distance of a throw in the women's event by approximately 1m (windless conditions)  

from http://www.xs4all.nl/~mwijand/Hammer/characteristics.html

If people take a look at the length of women's Scottish hammer, they need to factor in the smaller head will have less drag allowing the women's hammer to fly farther.  However, the heavier (than 50% of mens weight) may take care of this.  Which leads us back to the basic question: 

Does the length of women's hammer handle give an unfair competitive advantage to taller throwers?  

Posted: 3/18/10 at 11:22am | IP Logged

So how to implement?

The first step, probably the easiest, would be to redefine the 12# hammer as "Women's Heavy Hammer" in existing rulebooks and define the 9# hammer as "Women's Light Hammer".  ADs of current games with a single hammer event would simply offer the "Women's Heavy Hammer" (12#) and would not have to acquire a light hammer immediately.  Since there is normally only a single hammer event (like a single stone event), this should be pretty painless.

Then the second step would be for those Games that normally have two hammer events to acquire a 9# hammer. 

What process exists for amending existing Highland Games rulebooks for such a change? 

Posted: 3/18/10 at 6:00pm | IP Logged

Changing the rules is just part of it. Try getting the implement makers on board with it as well.

Posted: 3/18/10 at 8:45pm | IP Logged

West wrote: Changing the rules is just part of it. Try getting the implement makers on board with it as well.

Already covered -- RMSA has had a 9lb hammer in their rules for a long time so there are people out there who can make them.

This is not  a new issue.  Tony Dziepak, web page which he put up in January 1999 suggested lowering the hammer weight and shortening the handle length for women.

Women sheaf bag weights were lowering with out much fuss or thought so why not the hammers?

Is $72 for a cast Iron Head Mjolnir Hammers to much to spend on the women's division?   I would wager lead ones will be cheaper.

A 20 pound sheaf bag is $60 -- what will last longer -- hammer or sheaf ?

Mjolnir Hammers make a cast Iron head for $72.  http://www.mjolnir1.com/scottishhammers.html

Merl Lawless has made one to test to see if a lead head would be structurally sound -- whether Merl has time to make any is a whole different issue.

I make two styles of lead paper weights that happen to have this hole in the middle -- one style has a hole that fits 1/2" PVC electrical conduit and the other style has a hole that fits 3/4" conduit.   If people want to use them as something other than paper weights that is their own business and I do not accept any liability for their silly behavior  --- I make paper weights not Scottish hammer heads.  

Posted: 3/18/10 at 9:06pm | IP Logged

Limited time offer:

First 10 AD's of games that will agree to:

(1) use a 9lb hammer as the women's light hammer and

(2) if that said games contest both hammers, the 12 pound hammer will be used as the women's heavy hammer.  

(3) more than 3 women will compete in the division at the event.

(4) 9 pound hammer distances will be sent to me to keep track of the best throws until records are officially kept elsewhere

(5) the event will be a Highland Games open to the public and not a Backyard Event.

I will provide that games a FREE (games pay shipping) paper weight that will weigh in at 9lbs in time that it can be used to hold down paper or for any thing else.

I will have 4 or 5 - nine pound paper weight at Shamrock Games this Saturday but I will NOT be wearing a Santa Suit.

Already have one taker - down to 9