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G-man 
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Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 457 |
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 Posted: 8/04/06 at 9:09am |
Sorry I just assumed that you are lifting to help throwing not to prove how strong your grip is? I think your going to get more (for throwing) out of a 600 dead with straps than limiting yourself to 400 (just don't tell anybody or they will take your man card away)  As for volume I only ever did deads about 2 times a month - but Im not a good deads so don't listen to me Edited by G-man |
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Tim Pinkerton
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Posted: 8/04/06 at 9:16am |
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Kev- Keep hookin' it. Once I started hookin' I never looked back. You'll get used to it in about a month. When I first started training with Sean I was using straps and he politely snickered at me so I dropped them. My grip was then an issue so he taught me the hook grip. I did it and told him that it hurt like h#ll. He said (with a look on his face) that some people just can't do that grip. Translation, "You can puss out if you want to but real men take the pain and get used to it." Sorry for the long post but the babies are taking a nap and I've got some time to kill. That and I feel pretty strongly about the hook grip. I would not have done it with out the "encouragement" from Sean but I'm glad I did now. You need me to offer some "encouragement"? -Tim |
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Skullsplitter
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Posted: 8/04/06 at 9:29am |
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Hook gripping a bar is good, because that means that is an overhand lift. I keep telling myself I am going to start overhand gripping and maybe this will get me started with some overhand deadlifts. As for the grip and the Heavy events, most of us do hook grip with the weights and this is smart. But personally when I pick up a weight, a strong hand makes it feel lighter and mentally that can be helpful. I think the same applies to the caber and hammer as well.
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"I am the thread, the pupil, and the eye of the needle is my teacher"
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AncientOne
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Posted: 8/04/06 at 9:53am |
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GMan- I see your point about getting more out of deads with bigger weights, but I take Sean's suggestion to mean - hook grip while deadlifting without straps is a good way to improve my throwing, ... and I won't argue with him. Your approach may differ from his and its obvious that we all improve while taking slightly different paths. In fact, I may even find a union between several of these different techniques to improve both my lifting totals and throws. I'm a self-coached lifter and thrower, ... so I'm on my own in this stuff, ... and it probably shows. I obviously haven't found the passion that many of you have for this lift and maybe I've set my sights to low, but now is the time. Tim- Dang, ... 630lbs. That's impressive. -KR188 |
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Winners are remarkably adept at figuring out what's required to win.
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sqeezemaster
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Posted: 8/04/06 at 9:55am |
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You can always go with a regular double overhand grip until it becomes an issue and then switch to the hook. This will build your grip strength without limiting the poundage on your back.
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Skullsplitter
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Posted: 8/04/06 at 11:00am |
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Oh, by the way Jayster, congrats on closing the #3. If you can close the #4 let us know. I would want to shake your hand. Or maybe not, I want to keep my fingers. |
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Craig JR
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Posted: 8/06/06 at 1:09am |
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Hi Guys, need to jump in from the other side of the pond. I'm very suprised that no one has mentioned building into the deadlift. PULLS are the most efficient for building back and hip strength for throwing. Start of concentrating on your olympic lifts and their supports, do power snatches, power cleans, high pulls with both hand spacings, from the floor and from the hang. Use weights your comfortable with and build up as you go. Use a hook grip for all these. You grip will increase in strength as will your back and hips. The only thing is to tape your thumbs and use chalk, this really increased grip strength. Once you reach good numbers on the pulls using good form and speed then look towards deadlifts. This is a slower lift with less carryover to explosive sports. Unfortunately I ruptured both biceps doing a car roll. Then tore the right one off the bone on a light hammer throw in NZ. THis year was repair time for the left. I have rehabed both times doing this. Always suing the hook grip overhand and building on the pulls before adding deadlifts. If possible use the same or similar body position for your pulls as for deadlifts. I also agree that everyone has different positions dependant on body type. |
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Mike Wills
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Posted: 8/06/06 at 9:05am |
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Hapy, I'm terrible at olympic lifting but I had pretty good powerlifting form. Here is a training deadlift from years back. The thing I always tried to do was think of the arms as nothing more than ropes with hooks on the end. Driving the feet through the floor while picking up the chest up (like there is a pulley in the ceiling directly above you with a rope and a hook in your chest...and someone is pulling on the rope) is a good way to get it started.
Another trick is to take about 300 pounds of slack out of the bar before you even try to break it from the ground...do this by "squeezing" yourself into position and compressing that 300 pounds onto the hips before pulling. http://media.putfile.com/600deadlift-240-1998 Edited by Mike Wills |
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AncientOne
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Posted: 8/06/06 at 3:59pm |
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CraigJR- Am with you on the pulls with cleans and snatches and high pulls from the hang and the deck. These are way more fun to me than the deadlift, but this line of thought started with simply a question about the deads since some guys here are quite expert on the lift and I wanted to hear about the suggestion for the mixed grip. Too bad about the car roll-over. Hope you are able to recover. Good luck in your rehab, -Kevin |
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Craig JR
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Posted: 8/10/06 at 4:24pm |
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Hi Kevin Rehab is going well. I was never a good deadlifter until I started to do pulls. This allowed me to find a good position to pull from and I feel more confident in this position. From there my deadlift has improved. Originally i used the mixed grip but as stated now just the hook grip. I seem to be able to keep the bar in nice and close with the hook but would twist a bit with the mixed grip
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/10/06 at 5:25pm |
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OK, I think I am getting to understand this a bit - will try it out Saturday in
my first powerlifting meet. Maybe even test out this hook grip idea - that extra inch or so I can get by overhand grip instead of having one supinated, might make a huge difference. What about regular vs sumo lift? Any advantages/disadvantages? |
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Wayne Hill
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 1:58am |
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Sumo allows for a more upright starting posture, which is beneficial to
some people (like, say, those who have a tough time breaking a weight
off the floor...) In competition, though, you should use the
style you used in training. You're not used to the surprisingly
different muscle recruitment pattern, so you probably can't lift as
much with the other style without practice.
I never liked sumo myself, because of the friction of my arms against my body near lockout, but realize that I could get used to it with practice. Good luck tomorrow. -Wayne |
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Mike Wills
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 3:11am |
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Actually conventional style is usually easier for breaking the weight off of the floor, but a lot of conventional guys miss at lockout. Sumo pullers generally miss off of the floor.
The difference usually has to do with body structure. I think that guys with wider hips and/or greater hip flexor power favor sumo, while guys with a less massive lower body and greater lower back strength tend to favor conventional. I did a modified sumo style, which meant that I only took my feet wide enough to get my arms inside of my legs. I wasn't interested in going as wide as possible in order to shorten the lift, I just wanted to get wide enough to use my hip strength because that was my greatest asset. |
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thegnome
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 4:28am |
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Hapy, Don't try anything different in a meet. At least not on your first two attempts. I'd say once you get in an opener and if you're happy with your second then go for it. Especially in the DL's. You'll already have 3 or 6 attempts (Squat & BP, or just BP)+ warm-ups, so I'd suggest sticking with what you know. Man, I haven't done a PL meet in a loooong time. Have fun!!! Full meet or a push/pull?
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 4:41am |
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Will be a full meet. I am really there to see how Mike Berby does in the
181lb class - he is hoping for a new state record in the overall and in Bench press. But thought I would give it a shot, since I am not allowed to do max lifts at my gym. Since I don't deadlift much anyhow - don't really see how changing styles will make much difference... I will check it out in warmup and see how it feels (both overhand grip and sumo) - will stick to my old style if it feels uncomfortable. Since my Squat and BP technique is so horrible, I should have plenty in the tank to go at the deadlift. Any recommendations on what weights to try for? I think I am good for around 475 - so was thinking of opening at 350 - then maybe 425, and ending at 500 for my 3rd if those go well. |
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MJurkoic
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 4:47am |
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Hapy, Those attempts look good. I always would start very conservatively. Jack the second attempt up a good amount. Go for a PR on the last attempt. Where and when is the contest?
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thegnome
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 4:55am |
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Tell Mike I said good luck. He's an animal. He amazes me getting down to 181 and still being so strong. Hope you guys both have a great meet.
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Mike Wills
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 5:31am |
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If I thought I could do a 475 max I would go 425-460-and then somewhere between 465 and 500 depending on how the second attempt felt. Most likely third would be 485.
In my first ever contest I was hoping to get 425. I opened at 385 and it felt like the bar was empty. Then 425...again empty. For my third I did 468 and it wasn't too tough! Granted I was 20 years old (weighed in at a massive 173 pounds) and had only been powerlifting for 6 weeks, so I didn't really know what I could do...but my gym max had been 405 up until that day. The point is that the adrenaline of the meet really helps the deadlift. You might surprise yourself. Edited by Mike Wills |
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/11/06 at 5:18pm |
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The meet is AAU? meet in Berlin, VT tomorrow. I will post up my pathetic
numbers afterwards - all these little 180lb guys are going to double me up. Not to mention the 96lb woman who can press more than me... 
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/12/06 at 2:41pm |
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OK, I was able to eek out a win over the 96lb woman!!! Squat 175kg (388lb) Bench Press 85KG (188lb) Deadlift 197.5KG (438lb) went at 215kg on my last dead attempt, and broke it to my knees, but ran out of gas and couldnt lock it out. I used the overhand hook grip, and was very surprised at how little pain there was - with that extra inch or so, breaking from the ground was much easier also. Mike Berby did indeed break the American record in the Bench Press in RAW powerlifting. I think he got 151kg, but maybe 155kg, I can't remember. Can't say that I am ready to hang up my kilt for Powerlifting, but had a good time testing my body in this competition.
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thegnome
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Posted: 8/14/06 at 8:38am |
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Congratulations Mike!! Hapy, I'm glad you beat the 96lbs. woman. I've kind of lost track of all the Powerlifting Federations, is the AAU where you are not allowed any knee or wrist wraps, or are they the one where it's no suits/shirts but wraps are OK?
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Mike Wills
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Posted: 8/14/06 at 9:40am |
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Thanks Gnome...but the meet I was describing was in 1993!
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thegnome
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Posted: 8/14/06 at 12:35pm |
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Umm..I was talking about the other Mike (Mike Berby), but that's OK. Congratulations to you as well.
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/14/06 at 4:39pm |
AAU is the Amateur Athletics Union... they mostly do the drug testing and stuff for the event. I competed RAW - which means no equipment of any kind - except for a weight belt. (no wraps, no tape, no suits, etc). They had an equipped division which allowed the suits and stuff - those guys are crazy with all that gear. |
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Mike Wills
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Posted: 8/14/06 at 4:49pm |
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I need to read more closely! Hapy I'll see you at Anne
Arundel...we can talk some powerlifting if you want to focus on it a
little during the offseason.
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Craig JR
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Posted: 8/15/06 at 1:09am |
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Congratulations well done. Will you keep with the overhand grip now??? |
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Hapy
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Posted: 8/15/06 at 4:18am |
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Definitely, looking forward to my trip to Anne Arundel. And yeah, overhand
hook grip is definitely for me. It actually didnt hurt that bad - just a little numbness in the tip of my thumb after the lift. Now if I can just get my butt down and use a little legs in it... |
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Mcdunough
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Posted: 9/11/06 at 3:12am |
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by doing these olympic style exercises, does one gain in strength
and size more naturally than opposed to regular body building workouts?? I have noticed that i fatigue way faster when i do DL's,work with stones,and or cleans and jerks...Im just spent,and in pain. is this good? steve MN. |
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Hapy
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Posted: 9/11/06 at 6:27am |
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size and strength = squats and deadlifts
speed and explosiveness = cleans and snatches |
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thegnome
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Posted: 9/11/06 at 6:31am |
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Last weekend I did my first DL workout reversing my grip as per Skullsplitters suggestion. I didn't go over 400lbs, but I didn't notice much difference in grip strength. However, I did notice alot less soreness where my previously damaged biceps tendon attaches. (Hapy, I'm going to ask another question and would like your opinion on it) |
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AncientOne wrote:
Needless to say I didn't want to look any weaker than I already was compared to Sean so I hunkered down and suffered through it. The 2nd week was the worst. I felt all bruised up in my thumb but by the 3rd week it got better. By the 4th week I couldn't tell the difference between 225 and 405. My best with the hook is a partial dead from right at my knees with 630. It hurt a little and my thumbs were flat at the end but it was worth it to see the shaved up bodybuilders wondering how I was hanging on to that kind of weight with no straps. 
