Women Vs Men & Hammer Weights

Now looking at the results for the hammers:

The distribution of Women's Best throws are not similar to the distribution of men's Best throws.  This clearly demonstrates either the men are throwing disproportionately lighter hammers OR women are throwing disproportionately Heavy Hammers (this conclusion is based on the distribution of results for LWFD, HWFD, and WOB where women throw 1/2 of the men's weight and generate results similar to men).

My question to those who have been around this sport of a while:  How did women's hammer weights get set? 

I am assuming they were set so that the games/AD's could save cost and use the mens's light hammer for women's heavy hammer.  Can anybody confirm or dispell this believe?

 

That's assuming that the women's median throw in a given event should equal the men's.  Maybe they should really be less in proportion to median height (or some other measure).  Or maybe they should practice hammers more.



I don't see a compelling reason, like injuries occurring to women competitors in hammer throwing, to change anything.

Glaring inconsistency are annoying to me and they beg the question of why do they exist. 

So I ask, why are women's hammer weights set at 12 and 16 pounds when in other events they throw half the men's weight?

Is there a logical reason?  If the weights for women's hammer were set to save money... then that in itself is a compelling reason to change to lighter weights. 

There are people on the board who were throwing when women started participating, so an answer on why women's weights are at 12 and 16 pounds should be out there and not lost in time.

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In the events were the weights are well defined and were women throw half the men's weight, the distribution of the best throw from NASGA's database are similar. 

In the hammer, the women throw implements that are more than half the weight of the men's, there is noticeable and glaring disparity in results.

Why the difference? why not half the weight?  Why shouldn't women be given an implement that flies to similar distance as men?

If male throwers dropped a couple of 5# plates on their 22# hammer (makes for a 32# hammer which is twice the women's heavy hammer) and takes some swings and even throw it a few times ... perhaps the point I am trying to make will be come clearer.  It is much more difficult to throw a 32# hammer and not any where near as much fun as the 16# or 22# hammer.  Nor is the distance thrown very impressive. 

I am not putting this argument forward because I think women can't throw their hammer weights.  I putting it forward because I noticed the inconsistency and believe hammer throwing should be fun and impressive to the public.  I further wonder why women shouldn't be allowed the same impressive distances as men (rhetorical question)?

What about sheaf, then?

l can't offer any insight into how the weights for the women's implements evolved but l do know this.  ln '89, when l first started having a women's class at the Claw, l could find no info on women's implements, zip, zero, zilch.  l had to just fake the weights.  lt wasn't until '92 that l found what other Games were using for weights and then threw out the whole set and made new ones!

As far as what weight hammers that women should be throwing, no woman has ever voiced her displeasure to me as to what they were throwing.  l think that that's the bottom line.  lf it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

Sheaf-wise, real men under 40 toss the 20 pounder and that equates perfectly to the women's 10.  Maybe the discussion should be whether or not the Master Women should toss an 8 lb sheaf.  Or whether there should even be 16 lb sheaves for young guys!

Alright, I had a long talk with Merl over the weekend about this subject.  He is going to make an 8 lb. hammer and we are going to field test it.  I want to see how it will fly, if it will be too light, etc.  I see no reason NOT to change it for a couple of reasons.  First, is that as you showed, it is not in line with the other weights.  Secondly, I have seen many women throwers that cannot get enough momentum to get the heavy hammer over their heads.  Thankfully, few of them have gotten hurt, but many have come very close.  I think it's worth consideration.  I have no problem with making the light hammer into our heavy hammer.  12 lbs. is fine for that, and we wouldn't have to make another set of weight to adjust for one pound.  We have not made the switch, I want that clear.  We are having one made and we will field test it to see if it will work for our needs.

Again, if you have been on the field with women throwers who are new to the sport and are NOT from track & field or weightlifting backgrounds it is not a good weight for them.

Telling women they just need more practice is just a narrow minded suggestion.  If Mindy P cannot break 100 feet with a heavy hammer, there is something wrong!!

McSanta wrote: Glaring inconsistency are annoying to me and they beg the question of why do they exist.

Well said...

Krazy40 wrote: I think it has less to do with the hammers being too heavy, and more to the higher percentage of men with t&f/lifting backgrounds compared to the percentage of woman with t&f/lifting backgounds. As women competitions become more popular, and attracting more women with those backgrounds, I see that gap narrowing.

A very interesting point.   I do agree with you that the difference will narrow as more women with strength sports background get involved.

You do see this in the top 5 to 10 percentiles (90 to 100) of the graphs (the longer throws) where those women responsible for those throws have been involved in strength sports and/or track and field. 

Yet, a LARGE disparity between distances still exists in the hammers.  If your conjecture fully explained the difference in results, we would see the women's hammer distance approach and/or exceed the men's hammer distance as it does in LWFD, HWFD, and WOB.   It does not, which means there is another explanation for the differences.

To further emphasize that the background (Mindy is a fine example) does not explain the difference, review the world records for the events where women throw 1/2 the weight of men.  With the top athlete of both genders performing the event, the element of not having a strength sport background is factored out and the results should be close to unity or 100%. 

In events where women throw 1/2 the weight of men, there is a small difference in results with the men throwing just a wee bit farther than women.  

	Men	Women	Men/Women	Women/Men
HWFD	49.83	47.96	103.91%	96.24%
LWFD	94.54	88.17	107.23%	93.26%
WOB (Spin)	20.08	19.00	105.70%	94.61%
WOB (Stand)	18.70	18.67	100.18%	99.82%

Now review the results for the hammers:

	Men	Women	Men/Women	Women/Men
Heavy	139.50	99.08	140.79%	71.03%
Light	156.71	120.08	130.50%	76.63%
MHH:WLH	139.50	120.08	116.17%	86.08%

We see a huge disparity in the world records for men and women under the current hammer weights.  This cannot be explained by athletic background of the throwers.

The best comparison that can be done for comparing results for hammer weights the way (I believe) they should be is to compare men's 22lb hammer (MHH) world record to women's 12 lb  hammer (WLH) world record, remembering that women are throwing 1lb or 9.09%over 1/2 of the men's weights.  

This is done in the above table in the MHH:WLH line.  The results are narrowed dramatically.

If an assumption is made that a Women's 11lb World Record would be 9.09% longer than the record set with the 12lb hammer, the comparison would lead to even narrower differences.

Mens/Womens = 106.49%
Womens/Men = 93.91%

This underlies the point that women's hammers should be 1/2 the weight of men's hammers.

I took a breath before adding my previous comment, but maybe not long enough.  I also apologize if I came across as defensive.  It was just a misunderstanding and I apologize for my part of that as well.

I do understand the problems that we all have with the weights.  Well...those of us who are not very good, I should say.

I personally, don't mind the hammer weights for myself.  I will never be a stellar thrower and I am okay with that.  However, I have seen more women struggle dangerously with that heavy hammer than men.  It's not an easy thing for anyone, and if you don't have the immediate strength of a weightlifter, or the experience of a track and field thrower, it’s especially difficult no matter what your gender.

Again, if Mark can make the 32 lb. hammer, I think that will be part of the testing process for the hammer weights.  We will try the 8 lb. hammer and see what the scores are, and the men will try that 32 lb. and we can compare those numbers to what we already have.  Besides, we may make an 8lb. weight and it may not work.  It may be too light, or not strong enough because there’s not enough mass, or whatever.

I am only pushing for the testing of the weights, because if we don’t do that we will never know.  I haven’t made up my mind on whether it will be beneficial or not.

I will get off my soapbox now…sorry!

No matter how the disparity in results looks on paper, there are a few concerns for those who run athletic area when considering lowering the minimum women's hammer weights to 8 and 11 pounds:

1. Cost of two new hammers:  In reality this could very easily be the cost of one new hammer since the current women's 12# hammer could be used as the weights are minimums
   
   
2. Durability and structural soundness of the hammer:  I did not think of this issue but Merl Lawless and Topaz G-S certainly have. 
   
   Some rough estimates assuming a 7.5# head and 1/2" PVC handle w/ fat end embedded 1" into the bottom of the head:
   
   4" diameter spherical shape should be a bit taller than 1/2 of a sphere or about 2-1/4" tall (1.75" inches under a perfect sphere).
   
   3.5" diameter sphere should be 2.85" tall or 0.65" short of being a perfect sphere
   
   Using 3/4" PVC handle will make the hammers taller and would generate almost a full sphere with a 3.5" diameter.
   
   The measurements, if accurate, appear to provide enough metal to make a solid hammer. 
   
   
3. Will the women out throw the men's light hammer field with a 8# hammer?  (or is the women's hammer to light)
   
   Women's current 12# world record is 120'-1" which if you made an adjustment for it being 1# (9.09%) heavier than Half the men's weight or 11#, could be about 130' (a crude adjustment)
   
   130 * Men's Light Hammer record/men's heavy hammer record should yield an idea of the range that a women's world record would be for a 8# hammer -- this value is 156 feet and change which is right at the men's world record for light hammer.  (dare I say more evidence for using 1/2 men's weight)
   
   

This is all done on paper as a theoretical exercise.  Actual results will not be know until hammers are made and tested. 

However, points #2 and #3 should reassure those interested that this is not a futile exercise and that there is a good possibility that Women's minimum hammer weights of 8# and 11# are plausible limits.

This should make for an interesting spring to see if theory and practice are the same. 

l don't see a good reason to mess around with a 32 lb hammer.  l think that it's a given that it would be harder to throw.  Doing some testing with an 8 lber has some merit, so long as nobody has to expend a bunch of $$$.

l will say that back in '92, when l found out the weights that were being used for the women's hammers, l went ahead and came up with a 12 lber because l felt that the 16 lber that we already had was not a suitable weight implement for the women.  Not because l thought that they wouldn't be able to handle it but because l felt that the weights were not very well thought out.

T& F is T& F!!!!keep the weights the way they have been...with todays technologies and better training regimes-it would be sad to change the womens weights(they know what it is and how much it weights when they get in the sport)..different things evolve in sports thru theyears-don't let one of them be changing womens hammers....

 

 

and no I am not some sexist pig...my wife throws as well as my 19yrold and 14 yr old daughter(and when my daughters complained about the 16hammer I said just suck it up and throw!)

McSanta you make some excellent points and I love all the work with the graphs you have done. Your question about where did they come up with 16lbs and 12lbs for the women's hammers is a good question. If you follow the history of women throwing in this sport, whatever was considered the men's light in any event, was then used as the women's heavy implements. I would assume that when women started throwing there was not many of us and therefore, at many of the games we would at least have the heavy to throw since the men's light implements would always be available. As how they got the 12lbs, is strange because if it where to follow the men's hammers it would be 6lbs lighter difference so therefore you would think it would be 10lbs, since the mens are 16 & 22lbs.  In a majority of games for the Sheaf the standard is 20lbs men, 10lbs women and 16lbs for Master men, there are a few exceptions where the women's is heavier.  thank you for bringing all of this up, is a great discussion as the number of women throwing increases each year.  For many years women had asked me why when we are of Masters age, why our weights dont decrease like the mens do... well for the first time ever.. this year at the WMC.. the women in th 50+ division threw a 20lb heavy WFD and 20lb WOB.   Again thank you for bringing up a subject I have pondered since I started throwing & running games.  Karyn Dallimore

I apologize for repeating information in prior posts of this tread.  However, I believe the following three graphs do a better job of illustrating my point about the Women's hammer weights.

In the events (*) were women throw half the weight as men, the resulting distance of men and women are about the same as can be seen in the LWFD. 

* All events means the events where the weights are well defines: WOB, LWFD, and HWFD.  Sheaf shows some indications of the same phenomenon but I do not have raw data to do a proper comparison as there are 16, 20, and 25 pound bags for men and 10 & 12 pound bags for women.  I have not reviewed the stone events

 

However, this does not hold true in the hammers as seen in the heavy hammer plot below and also holds true for the light hammer.  As we all know, in these events women do not throw half the men's weight.

Clearly, the women's distance are shorter than men. On average, 15' shorter for women in the heavy hammer and 23' for the light hammer.

How would women fair if they threw 1/2 the weight of men?  Cannot exactly answer that but when comparing the results for mens' heavy hammer (at 22#) to women's results for their light hammer (at 12#), we can certainly get an idea:

then the rest of the questions come into play that have been answered in my prior posts.